Dart underground

AuthorMessage DateMessage
Grace05/09/2014When Is the Dart underground from inchicore likely to commence. See something on Irish rail site about it.
ant05/09/2014The sooner the better, and hopefully they will put both the dart station and a luas stop up at the CIE works as originally planned.
Alan C05/09/2014Never ever.
The 2km missing rail link from Heuston to the city center has been in the planning stage for over 150 years now.
(The station opened in 1846 and soon after it was planned to extend it to the city center).
The current plans are no longer feasible (and never were) and will be replaced with a more sensible plan (e.g. cutting out the underground link from Heuston to Inchicore would reduce the tunnel length by 40%)
When they do come up with a sensible plan that would actually work it will then take about 10 years to build it.
2030 would be the earliest date I would expect to see anything, but more likely closer to the 200th anniversary of beginning of this process.
Peter Mc05/09/2014Alan C, as you well know, the dart underground project, including the Inchicore dart station, has been given full approval by An Bord Pleanala after a full oral hearing in which you and other members of the public were invited to participate. I am thrilled that the dart will be coming to Inchicore.
Alan C05/09/2014Hi Peter, I am well aware of that fact but I am equally aware of the fact that the country's financial position has changed considerably since this plan was approved.
("We don't even have enough money to maintain the existing fleet of trains" - according to Leo Varadkar)
The current plan, as approved by An Bord Pleanala, has no change whatsoever of being built.
Varadkar himself said in the Dail that we will have to abandon the plan if we don't go ahead with it by 2015 due to a High Court decision (basically the Compulsory Purchase Orders which have been issued are only valid if the project commences within 18 months of their issuing.)
Alan C05/09/2014Detailed information from the Minister for Transprot at:

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014041000062?opendocument
Alan C05/09/2014And a more up-to-date piece in the Irish Times, which basically say we don't have any money provided for it and if the project doesn't start by Sept 2015 it will be scrapped.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-rail-projects-to-rely-on-private-funding-1.1895133?mode=print&ot=example.AjaxPageLayout.ot
DK05/09/2014The Irish Times article you linked to Alan actually says the Dart Underground would require funding outside normal department allocations including private funding. This is not exactly anything new.
Alan C05/09/2014Actually I think that is new, the plan up until this year was to pay for it with government money including borrowing from the European Investment Bank. As Leo Varadkar stated the country is not in a position to borrow more as it would increase our debt to GDP ratio.
Private funding is entirely different and involves a steak holder, i.e. Private company paying to build it and then owning it for 30 years or so, similar to the M50 and EastLink Tollbridges.
This is not likely to happen as the cost of building it would be €4 Billion and nobody has it to spend and the business case is not strong so even if they did it they would find it hard to make back €4billion from the investment.
It's just my opinion but I don't see it happening and if it is to happen it will need to be fundedin budget 2015 to be announced next month.
Very unlikely
Alan c15/10/2014It looks like the Dart Underground as currently planned is dead.
With no funding allocated to start the project from Budget 2015 it's inevitable that the current plan will expire and if in the future some government wants to start afresh they will need to come up with a new plan and get it approved.
Chances are it will never happen now
LM16/10/2014Inchicore already has excellent transport links in and out of Dublin city centre. The bus takes 10-20 minutes on average and goes from both sides of Inchicore and we also have the Luas.
Sam16/10/2014Jim, your analysis is both funny and somewhat accurate. I hope nobody in the CIE Estate is offended by your comments !
Alan C16/10/2014Jim obviously hasn't spoken to anyone in the CIE estate!
I would tend to agree with LM, Inchicore already has excellent public transport.
In terms of priorities for improving the area, transport wouldn't be high up there in my opinion, apart from maybe improving the local cycle network, and improving the footpaths for pedestrians so that there aren't cars or other obstructions.
The Dart project would have had a lot of negative impact on the area too (just look up inchicore on track for professional analysis of this) and there would be very limited benefit as there is no real problem with public transport in the area.
Sam16/10/2014Jim, perhaps you could reply to Alan C ? You must live in the CIE Estate yourself Alan, our perhaps beside it in Woodfield or Inchicore Road.
Sam17/10/2014Jim, you have a somewhat accurate view regarding your sentence:

" ...apart from a few toff residents in the cie estate who couldn't afford to buy in a well to do area and so settled for inchicore, everybody I've spoken to is greatly in favour"

However, a more accurate position regarding the Dart Underground in the CIE Works is that:
*There were some (not what Jim calls "toff") residents in the CIE Estate who were against the Dart Underground.
*There were some (what Jim calls "toff") residents in the CIE Estate who were in favour of the Dart Underground.

Regarding the CIE Estate itself at this moment in time, the main talking point is that some residents in the CIE Estate, primarily on Inchicore Terrace North, want to close the wicket gate (due to criminals coming into the CIE Estate) whereas other residents in the CIE Estate want to keep the wicket gate open. The wicket gate is the pedestrian footpath that connects Sarsfield Road and Inchicore Terrace North.

I don't know what you're on about regarding Eastern European immigrants in Abercorn Square in the CIE Estate. There's some Eastern Europeans in Abercorn Square and they are all very nice people and in fact a lot nicer than some Irish people in other parts of the CIE Estate and Inchicore. What I have found is that there is still a bigoted and racist prejudice in the hearts of some Irish people.
Judi17/10/2014Jim, I thought that the reason the CIE residents were against the original plan for Dart Underground was because CIE wanted to dig a giant hole (bigger than a football pitch) in the CIE estate for 10 years of construction and remove mountain loads of dirt from it and permanently remove the pitch.
If they planned on doing this in a different estate in Inchicore I'm sure the residents would also rightly object.
I don't think it was anything to do with notions of grandeur, I'm pretty sure the lower end of the the social order who only live in certain estates because the state gave them to them for free would have as much reson to object if it was planned for their estate, however one would wonder if anyone would have listened to them!
john20/10/2014Problem resident lived in number 36 well known to the Guards. She’s long gone thank god and the new neighbours are lovely people. R.M is the landlord who housed her. Abercorn Square imo is now a well settled area, and a pleasant place to live.
G20/10/2014Alan C above, I think your interpretation of the budget is a bit off. My understanding is that the next round of capital funding will be announced with the next budget in October 2016 but there is no reason why DART underground can't be given a green light before that announcement is made and before the September 2015 deadline.

The Minister seem to suggest as much himself here:

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-10-09a.681&s=%22Dart+Underground%22#g683.r

and here:

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-10-02a.616&s=%22Dart+Underground%22#g617.q

In short what he is saying is they are reviewing options for Swords-Airport-City Centre (Bus Rapid Transit & Metro North) and the DART underground. Reports on all 3 will be completed in early 2015 and decisions will be made by mid-2015. He specifically says:

"I will prioritise any additional funds for projects for which there is a clear need, which are affordable, have a sound business case and add value to existing infrastructure. I would expect that there will be public transport projects in the Dublin region which will meet these criteria if funds are available."

To me that is suggesting that DART Underground is potentially a runner while Metro North is to be replaced by the BRT. Particularly important is the piece about "adding value to the existing infrastructure" as this is the main purpose of DART Underground which began life as the 'inter-connector'
Alan c20/10/2014Hi G, you make a good point there
I guess it is still possibly it might go ahead next year but getting unlikely in my opinion. I can't see it happening as its just so expensive.
I'm not sure the dart underground would attract as many vote as metro north /BRT to swords ?
Jim21/10/2014Hey G, yes some excellent information, many thanks indeed. Just like Alan C. I also stand corrected. You have cleared up a lot of the speculation that was offered in this thread. Its great to see some actual informed statements backed up by references, instead of the rather wild assertions made by obviously ill informed people. Well done and many thanks.
Alan c22/10/2014Hi again G
It seems a bit odd that since Pascal Donohue became minister for transport the official line has changed I was quoting the former mimister who was dampening any expectation of this going ahead.
Why do I think this is odd?
Well
Originally CIE wanted to build a giant hole in Inchicore and remove all the soil from here (100s of truckloads a day) working day and night. The CIE residents got together and successfully challanged this and the hole was moved to east wall.
But one local representative who faught for the East Wall residents and p
Retry much lost out was Pascal O'Donohue the current minister for transport and the man who will have final say on this project!
It's not in doubt that his constituents are against the project and he will loose votes if he signs off on it!
Alan C22/10/2014Jim, you seem to out to attack me for some reason, you must be a very angry man, the internet is not a safe place for you to express this anger and I would suggest you might try talk to a professional.
jim22/10/2014Alan: OMG thanks for the advice mate, anyone you can recommend?
ma22/10/2014Jim, you might take Alan along with you. I think he has a problem!
Simon22/10/2014"Jim" and "Alan C" were trading vulgar insults with each other yesterday on this forum and the moderator of this website had to delete all of their offensive comments yesterday. As an impartial observer, my advice to both of you is to keep your comments from degenerating. It's absolutely fine to criticise another person's viewpoint as long as it does not end up in a shouting match. I believe that Jim is entitled to criticise Alan's opinions in light of what Jim believes Alan's social status to be. Alan has a right to reply as he sees fit.

That's what mature debate is all about.
Jim22/10/2014Simon: If you recall my posts from yesterday you will realise that at no time was I vulgar. I was critical yes, I commented on Alans lack of accurate information despite his numerous and detailed posts, and I questioned his agenda. Alan replied with profanity, insult, accusation, and a recommendation for mental health services which I can only guess is based on his own experience of engaging with such services.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Thanks, Jim.
Alan c22/10/2014Simon don't be so rude, nobody is entitled to criticize me based on what they perceive my social status to be.
Jim is attacking me personally and not my opinion.
alan c22/10/2014I think Simon & Jim are the same person tbh. Calling Jims attacks on me "mature debate" is absurd and adds nothing to the Dart Underground debate.
Jim22/10/2014Or...maybe Alan C, Simon, and Jim are all the same person! Now wouldn't that just be weird Alan? Yes it would Jim, do you agree Simon? Yup I do Alan.

Thanks for the clarity Alan.....
G30/03/2015Definitive answer on DART underground should be availble by mid-2015 according to a PQ response from the Minister on 24 March:


"That output will then require careful consideration in tandem with other analyses being undertaken, including the updating of a business case for the DART Underground project and the work being carried out in the preparation of a draft Transport Strategy for the GDA. I expect to finalise this review by mid-2015 in conjunction with the development of the transport strategy for the region."

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-03-24a.2414&s=dart#g2419.r

3rd of March PQ gives a bit more detail:

Given the constraints on the public finances, a number of projects, including the extension of the Luas to Lucan, were deferred under the Government's 5-year capital programme, Infrastructure & Capital Investment Programme 2012-2016 - Medium Term Exchequer Framework, published in November 2011.
The priorities under the current capital plan are to protect investment made to date and to progress affordable projects such as Luas Cross City which add value to the existing network. Luas Cross City is due to open at the end of 2017.
The National Transport Authority (NTA) has statutory responsibility for the planning and development of public transport infrastructure in the Greater Dublin Area (GDA). In this regard the NTA is in the process of preparing a new transport strategy for the GDA comprising the counties of Dublin, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow covering the period 2015 to 2035. This will include a review of the public transport requirements for the Lucan area.
It is intended that the NTA's draft transport strategy will be available for public consultation in mid-2015. As a first step in that process, the Authority invited views and opinions on what might be addressed in the transport strategy. The closing date for submissions has just passed.
In addition, by mid-2015 I expect to finalise a review of a number of studies currently underway, including the Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study, the updated business case for DART Underground, and a preliminary business case for the Swords/Airport/City Centre BRT Corridor in conjunction with the development of the transport strategy for the region.
The outcome from all this work will inform the prioritisation of projects to meet the GDA public transport requirements over the coming years. Delivery of projects prioritised will be dependent on the funding available including from non Exchequer sources.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-03-03a.1349
BG11/04/2015Another plan...Great!
G29/04/2015New capital expenditure plan out to 2020 will be published in June, rather than with budget in October as I had thought. That should mean a definitive answer on Dart Underground before the September deadline.

Might be nothing but it's possible that capital expenditure plan has been brought forward because of that September deadline
G06/08/2015Big piece on this on Morning Ireland earlier. Apparently Capital Expenditure plan will now be published in September and will include a Government decision on whether or not proceed with Dart Underground.
G06/08/2015http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0805/719405-dart-underground/

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/decision-on-new-dart-line-due-by-next-month-31430950.html
Alan C08/09/2015Irish Times story says the Dart Underground has been scrapped in favor of the Luas line to Airport via Glasnevin.
If true the DU will be officially dead as the planning permission will expire.
Paul 08/09/2015Here's the link: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/government-abandons-dart-underground-project-1.2344211