Gangs hanging around the shops

AuthorMessage DateMessage
raymond25/04/2014Can anything be done about the gangs hanging around the shops in Inchicore, especially Eurospar. A lot of people are intimated by these lads. I asked a few people if they were local, most are from Bluebell, some from Drimnagh and some from Rialto. They had dogs and they took the muzzles off, I spoke to a few people who said they were afraid to shop local. Again as far as I know they are all living in DCC houses or flats.
raymond25/04/2014I just want to say I have nothing against people living in DCC houses, I live in a DCC flat. What I meant was that DCC and the gardai can act and warn the parents about these lads involved in anti social activities. These lads are robbing the shops as well and it could end in the closure of some of the shops. Too many shops have closed in Inchicore over the last few years. I don't how we can solve these problems as these youths have no fear. Some of these were involved in breaking into St Michaels Youth Project.
tanya26/04/2014I was in Wexford last week and there was a gang similar to the one hanging around Inchicore. Something needs to be done urgently.
M26/04/2014I had a stone thrown hard over my head into the wall on Spa Road yesterday - quite frightening. I had been ignoring them coming out of the shop - it's their idea of fun.
But what can be done ? - we can't have them hauled off anywhere - it's caused by the attitude of their families. Only a permanent Guardia presence would help.
A26/04/2014I had an old cd thrown at me while driving, it nearly caused a crash. Then they threw another cd at me, thankfully it didn't hit me. Eurospar need to get security or it will have no customers. The elderly are afraid to collect their money there in the PO. The problem is most of these lads are too young to prosecute. We are in for a terrible summer.
Kensey26/04/2014Eurospar had a full time security guard and i think that made the problem worse, they used to hang around all evening trying to antagonise him. was in there this evening and a young teen came in roaring and lay on the fruit at the front. a full time garda presence is needed to stop them.
A26/04/2014The gardai don't have the manpower, after all they have a huge area to police and gardai are retiring etc. Eurospar in other areas have proper security and it WORKS
Ck26/04/2014I agree with everyone that something should be done. Some of these kids are too young and the police cannot do anything.It is the parents who should be taken to task over this. The gardai are under pressure as it is and they cannot be at one shop all day. I don't think the owner of Eurospar seems that interested in this shop, he spends more time in his many other shops.
TA30/04/2014This is a serious issue and it will get worse if nothing is done about it. Does anyone have ideas what to do?

Frustrated, I just sent a "comment" to Spar on this through their website. Also tweeted to @SPARIreland. Although I'm not expecting a huge reaction perhaps everyone should do the same? In Twitter you often get a reaction from companies because everyone can see the tweets and the companies want to seem concerned.
Ck30/04/2014That's a good idea, something needs to be done. How do we keep these kids out of Inchicore. Some of the Drimnagh lads are not allowed in, but they are still coming over the bridge and ruining Inchicore. The Rialto lads should be kept out too, they are nothing but trouble. It is bad enough that we have to deal with our own youth, but these are from everywhere. The Luas is a great asset but these lads jump on and end up here.
B01/05/2014If you wish to improve the situation you could try contacting the local youth projects who work with at risk youth and most likely have a pre-existing relationship with the majority of these kids. Both Bluebell and Inchicore youth projects have a well trained full time staff team who (from my experience working with them in the past) will definitely be interested in engaging with you on this matter.

Bluebell youth Project, Bluebell Road 014738439

Inchicore youth project

http://www.smpyp.org/site/index.php?file=kop1.php

Alternatively, or additionally, the local drugs task force have a policing forum where community reps and Declan Downey (superintendent, Kilmianham police) discuss issues of community safety and policing.

http://www.canalcommunitiesldtf.ie/

You could, as a group of concerned residents, draft a letter outlining your experiences and send it to the managers of each organisation.
Ck02/05/2014Declan Downey is the Inspector in Kilmainham and is well aware of what is going on. I believe we are losing our Superintendent Thady Muldoon in June. As for the youth projects, these youths won't link in with anyone. I was a Youth Leader so I know what I am talking about. I remember the youth leaders going out in the evening to try and convince young lads to drop in, but to no avail. These youths actually ransacked St Michaels Youth Project, took wetsuits etc and left the place in a mess. I recently heard there was a" rape" of a 15 yr old girl and some of the boys were only 12. What hope is there for their future.
tanya02/05/2014The gardai know who these lads and girls are, the gardai's hands are tied, the children are too young to prosecute. JLOs call out but these kids are not afraid of anyone. I think the parents should be fined and they might be think twice about letting their children out roaming the streets.
TA02/05/2014Sounds pretty hopeless so! But just curious because I don't know: why would the Gardai hands be tied? Should they indeed seek the parents (and fine them if there is evidence of crime) if the kids are underage?
tanya02/05/2014The gardai caught a number of these kids during the week,but the problem is some of the shops say it is too much bother to prosecute. The gardai do act but the parents wouldn't pay the fines.
B02/05/2014CK: it seems that you are more interested in having a rant about 'kids these day' than in actually seeking some kind of positive outcome. I don't know where you were a youth leader but it sound to me like you definitely do not 'know what you are talking about'. If you wish to go on with your depressive observations maybe the comments section of the journal.ie may be a better venue. I worked in Inchicore and Bluebell for 8 years and I worked directly with some of the older kids you have referred to. Let me assure you that all of these kids are linked in to the youth projects to some degree. Yes it definitely is difficult to keep some of them engaged but its an ongoing process. EG. In Bluebell we had a very positive outcome when the community development projects and the youth project sought to work with the kids to stop the hassle of old people in the area, good work was done and the kids responded.

For any residents who do wish to do something about this issue (rather than just rant and bemoan the state of the world) you could contact Eric in St Michaels youth project and Paul in Bluebell youth project, both are fantastic youth workers who link in with the most difficult kids regularly. They are professionally trained youth workers, not voluntary youth leaders.
Ck02/05/2014I was a trained Youth Leader too.
Ck02/05/2014I was NUI Maynooth!
A02/05/2014I agree with everything CK has said.
I saw the manager of Tesco after he was assaulted by these youths.I was hit on Wed night with a CD. The kids were laughing, I wasn't hurt but that is not the point. I know youth workers can do good work, however sometimes they stand up for these kids (which I can understand) . Something will have to be done before it gets out of hand.
raymond02/05/2014I have to say I agree with A and CK. I think I know Ck and if so this person did great work but has moved on. I think there is enough said on this matter, I think it should end before it gets personal.
k03/05/2014Saw a young student looking lad attacked and bably beaten for no reason today at blackhorse luas at 6.15pm today by 3 young thugs. Was driving and around 30 people saw it happen.

Someone needs to get rid of the drugs den when you enter Emmett Crescent on the right. There is open drug dealing going on there all day, it is attracting all sorts of undesirables to the area. It is less then 30 meters from goldenbridge primary school so surprised the herald or sunday world haven't done a story on it.
M03/05/2014Please do not put rape in quotation marks as if rape were a dubious thing to be doubted and not a violent crime done by those who do not respect other people's humanity. If the crime is yet unproven the phrase allegation of rape, explains the situation.
tanya03/05/2014I think the reason the rape was in question was because the girl invited these young lads in and she cried rape the previous week. The girl and the young lads all need help. I saw dealing going on around the front of Emmet Crescent and I spoke to a number of residents( think they are nuns) who said most of these lads don't live even in Inchicore. How can anyone help and improve the area when lads and lassies are coming from other areas.
A03/05/2014This is a troubled girl who is in a care home (where there are "trained Social Workers") She was drunk and did call these 12 yr olds in one by one. I live near where this incident happened but didn't know why she was calling them in. Some of these kids were on tablets. There are 2 men in their 60s selling tablets to anyone who will but them. One young lad took 2 Valium 10 and went into the canal, his mates pulled him out. These kids need parents who take an interest or some people to take of them. I agree with CK the situation is very depressing, if they are only 12-14 what future have they got.
Ck03/05/2014I have nothing against the Youth Projects, I know they do good work,however from my past experience you cannot force these at risk children to link in. I worked with many of both boys and girls, encouraged many to join, some would come in, but would be disruptive and caused more trouble. I never gave up on them, some are adults now who I am still in contact with and have their own families. I am in a different job now, a tougher job but very rewarding as was the youth work.
raymond03/05/2014I think there are enough people around, who know about this situation, to deal with the problem. There are the gardai, Dcc, Family Resource Centre, St michaels Youth Project,Goldenbridge Primary and Secondary Schools, the Oblate Priests live close, there are about 6 Mercy Nuns living in the Crescent. Between them surely they can engage with these youths. I think all the nuns were teachers.
I think we should try to promote a more positive picture of Inchicore. A workmate of mine was looking into buying here but saw all the negative comments and is think twice about it. There are enough halls around here between Bulfin Hall, Michaels Hall the Oblate, C.I.E. hall There possibly is anti social in other area but because people use Vincent St to access the Luas people see it here. Thornton Heights should be opening in June so maybe something good might happen
AW03/05/2014I just want to say I take exception to what B said. I know who you are and while you did good work you were paid to do it and could go home. I did voluntary work in all sorts, homeless people, soup kitchens, youth clubs, elderly people and while I am not qualified in any area, I have cop on which sometimes professionals lack. The difference between you and Ck is that he like me live here, you don't. It is not very nicecoming home at around 11pm and this gang hanging around. Where are the Youth Workers, is there a number I can ring!
tanya03/05/2014AW , very well said. We all know Brian. He moved on with his job. I also do voluntary and sometimes the volunteers put more time and effort into helping people, after all they are doing something because because they want to not because they have to .I understand how you feel when there are a group of youths that you have to pass, while they might not do anything it is scary. How about DCC, Youth Project Frc getting together to have something on the field at Michaels or the pitch and see how many lads would turn up.
B03/05/2014I really have very little else to say on this matter, I am amazed at the defeatism on display here. There are folks out there trying to work with these kids day in and day out and my intention in posting here was to encourage you to bring your experiences to those who could use your knowledge/complaints/experiences to design interventions with these kids. If folks dont have trust in the local services then hey thats fine, I can certainly understand such scepticism. What I find hard to digest about the exchange on this forum is the depressive negativism and defeatism from those who posted on this topic. Its pretty damn sad.

Just for AW and tanya: yes I was paid to do my job and yes I am highly qualified so I certainly deserved to be paid, however you both obviously have no idea who I am as yee seem quite certain that I dont live in Inchicore and dont have to deal with these problems. So just for clarity: my name is not Brian, I have lived in Inchicore for 5 years, before that I lived in Rialto and I am from Ballyfermot originally. So yea I do get to walk home at 11pm and pass these kids who cause hassle. My wife and 3 young kids also share the social space of Inchicore. I suppose thats why I prefer to engage with problems and issues, and the services who are tasked with tackling these problems and issues, so that we can seek solutions that will make the area safer for all of our families.

Fin.
A04/05/2014I was born and reared in Inchicore, I am in my late 30s, my parents are living here over 50 yrs. We have had troubled times before, drugs etc. We struggled through this, however now my parents are looking to sell as they don't feel safe anymore. If they move, my family will go too. We love Inchicore but DCC are not doing enough to sort out problems. We have had enough, there is a rumour some of the shops will be closing. You have to understand people get tired trying to sort out problems. Maybe if all the people writing got together and did something, it might help.
raymond04/05/2014When I started this topic I didn't realise the extent of negative feeling around. I have lived here longer than I care to remember and I only wanted something done. How about some positive feedback.
Ck04/05/2014Pats are doing well in the League.
raymond05/05/2014More bad news, just walked up Vincent Street and that a car was burnt out. Two locals said it happened around 3am.
raymond05/05/2014We all went through this before and the best advice is to act sooner rather than later before it gets out of hand.
Paul08/05/2014Interesting thread which shows how much people care about their area but I've had to delete a few comments for legal reasons.
Moderator.
angie09/05/2014I took the advice given by some posters on here and lodged a complaint with Spar Ireland about the lack of effective security in the Euro Spar.They got back to me and said that they would investigate it as a matter of urgency.I also mentioned the litter outside the shop.
K13/05/2014Was in spar around 6pm today and the same gang were there causing trouble, intimidating everyone. it's the same 10 to 15 scumbags every time. They aren't all kids either, some would be 18 or 19 and they are local. It's only a matter of time before there is a serious incident there, I'm sure some of them carry knifes!
Angie14/05/2014I feel sorry for the staff working there, can't believe eurospar won't do more to tackle the problem on their doorstep. It must be a real pain for anyone living on Spa road too.
Grainne 16/05/2014We have an election coming up, so why not tackle the prospective councillors about this problem of anti social youths and see if they have any imput is addressing this issue.
AW16/05/2014I have mentioned this to a number of people standing for election and TDs
raymond18/05/2014Good to see police around the village. Might sort the problem.
John l19/05/2014http://www.movingsoundtech.com

These guys have a device called a mosquito, great for anti social behavior
Angie21/05/2014That looks nearly too good to be true! It would be perfect outside the Eurospar. I no longer go in there but passing by the shop can be very intimidating with the loitering teens/tweens.Does anyone know if this has been used successfully in other areas? Are there laws around this sort of thing?
Judi22/05/2014Angie, it's not exactly perfect. This device causes an irritating piercing noice audible to children and teens.

What about children living above Eurospar? Or young children passing by? Its not exactly perfect for them.

The devices are not actually allowed under our Environmental Control laws
A22/05/2014There is a police presence around the shops at the moment but I heard that is only short term. I can see Eurospar closing, I saw a number of youths on Spa Rd. the other day with boxes of bars and chewing gum.
raymond22/05/2014I saw a load of young lads trying to sell bottles of minerals, sweets and cakes.
A24/05/2014I saw 2 gardai calling into the shops today, I also them walking around the Oblate ground, didn't see any of the trouble makers.
aw25/05/2014That's good news. We need to keep it that way. People are afraid to go into the shops with the gangs hanging around.
john l28/05/2014these slime balls don't give 2 hoots about laws, you could put a switch on the device and just switch it on when they are there and turn it off when they been run off.
sort them out real quick, there is no law at present regarding them in ireland, seen them at work in the states, absolutely priceless.
aw02/06/2014I see the youths have moved from the shops but are they the ones who set fire to the 2 pubs, McDowells and The Village. I heard McDowells was due to reopen.
R02/06/2014Nothing can be done about these brats, my partner is a Garda in Kilmainham and he knows who they are and nothing can be done about them as they're all under the age of 18 they can be brought into the station but cannot be charged or brought somewhere. Such a pity as they are the definition of children who were dragged up instead of brought up!

I'm not sure if this is true but i heard that an elderly man was leaving Eurospar with a 2 litre of milk in his hand and one of the scumbags kicked it out of his handed resulting in his breaking his fingers!
tanya02/06/2014I heard that about the elderly man too. I don't think they have left the shops. I heard a couple of lads were brought to garda station, but they are only around 11/12. All that can be done is the JLO will visit the kids.
B03/06/2014My 12 year old son was in Spar today and a member of staff followed him around the shop as he was collecting items. As a kid he found it hard to articulate how he felt but he was definitely nervous and he said the guy who served him at the till was unfriendly, 'he looked at me weird'. It's an understandable but rather sad side effect of the hassle that's going on down there. There are so many good kids in Inchicore and I think we all have to be mindful not to tar them all with the one brush.
aw03/06/2014I was shocked today to see a group of young traveller children take a scooter on a young child, a non national, thankfully a man ran after the travellers and got the scooter back. These travellers are causing mayhem in Inchicore. I have nothing against travellers, but something has to be done, they live in Bluebell!
Angie03/06/2014What have our local councillors/politicians done about any of this? I no longer shop down there as it's just not safe. We are being held to ransom by children,it's crazy.
raymond04/06/2014I hope to go to our local reps in the next few days. I am sick and tired of this. I would consider moving at this stage.
Jay 07/06/2014I moved to tramyard in sept last year unaware of the issues. Didn't see anything unusual for couple of months but then started seeing these issues.

I bike to office everyday and few small lads stopped me and said its their bike. I just smiled and they let me go. Other day stones were thrown. Also they teased my wife on the way some times. Not sure who they are and i m new to the country.

Best way for me is to ignore them. However I would really love if inchicore if more safe and clean in streets.
Keano08/06/2014Jay, I totally understand your situation but please don't mention where you live as some people that live where you mentioned bought there in the boom and are now stuck here due to negative equity! I wanna get out of here but can't! The problem is Tyrone Place and Emmet Cresent, both are 99.9% full off Scumbags and Junkies and they don't care who there filth teenage sons terrorise, big men are they in gangs but on their own Chickens.
Ryan 08/06/2014We all know crumlin/drimnagh have there gang problems, if it's not nipped in the bud now Inchicore will join them. That gang behaviour has to stop outside eurospar on Spa road and it has to be stopped now. Catherine Byrne is our local TD, she has a clinic beside keatinges chemist, 50 meters from from eurospar. We should all talk to here, she can get more of a garda presence around here!
aw08/06/2014How dare you say 99% of the people in Emmet Crescent are scumbags. There are very decent people living there and most of the scumbags that you talk about just hang there and the people living there are afraid of them. There are a lot of elderly people living in Emmet Crescent including a lot of nuns. How dare you talk about something you know nothing about. Every area has a few "scumbags" as you call them, a lot are in Tramyard too. My friend lived there and there was drug dealing and junkies there. She was lucky to sell when she did.
mick08/06/2014Keano, the nerve you have to say there are scumbags in Emmet Crescent. I live there and the only problem we have are the gang of youths hanging around the gate, who are from Rialto, Drimnagh and Bluebell. There are plenty of scumbags in Tramyards. One got a hiding the other night. Drug dealing is rife in there. People up here work in DCC, an Post, etc.Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
Pat08/06/2014People are having a good rant on here, lets see how many of you turn up at the meeting in St Michael's community center at 7.o clock on Wednesday, to see if anything can be done about the problems that people are talking about here...
aw08/06/2014People will not go to these meeting, there was a number of these before, one in Kilmainham, one in Rialto and nothing was done, these groups only hold these meetings to say they are doing something. The gardai and DCC know who is causing these problems. There are plenty of meetings with the gardai about the problems, not public meetings as you are afraid to say things in public.
raymond08/06/2014There is good and bad in every estate or apartment complex. If people know who is doing all this trouble name them to the gardai, keep it off this forum.
tanya08/06/2014Emmet Court, Lodge and Manor are worse than any place mentioned. Cars were smashed up in there
Keano08/06/2014AW And Mick, there is no drug dealing in the tramyard, Keenan property management do a great job of keeping here a nice place. As for Emmet Cresent sure let the 24/7 drug dealing go on at the gate but ur bringing Inchicore down to your level with all the scum u bring in. I even saw ur scum street kids hit a taxi with a rock at the black lion junction at 9.30pm this evening and to think what happened after that hijacked taxi crashed a mile down the road 13 hours earlier!
Keano09/06/2014Look I think the whole point of this forum is the anti social behaviour by gangs of early and late teens in Our area and how to stop them, it's getting side tracked now. I am partially at fault for that by naming certain areas which I shouldn't have done but I have been a victim of these gangs and feel real anger about that! As for Nuns living in Emmet Cresent, I wonder if any of them ever spent part of their vocation in Tuam!
AW09/06/2014Keano, I can guarantee you nobody from Emmet Crescent is causing trouble. It may be the people hanging around the front but they don't live there. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. The gardai and DCC would agree with me. A friend of mine is on a committee with both gardai and Dcc and they will confirm this. As for Tramyards there is dealing going on, I could name people who sell, I work with recovering addicts so I know. It has gone on for years there. And no, the nuns living in the Emmet Crescent were not in Tuam. There are very decent people living in the Crescent. The scum are from Bluebell that hang around the Black Lion, also from Drimnagh and Rialto.
Alison09/06/2014AW, well said. The people in the Crescent would love to get rid of the gang hanging around the front. Some people would like to move, but can't. Some own their homes, some rent which is regarded as a good mix. Bet you didn't know that, Keano. Everything that was said about Tramyard is true, you can just buzz in and get your supplies. All done very well. I used to visit people in there, that's how I know. Now I think we should put an end to all the negative press about Inchicore and focus on the positives. Keano have you ever gone out cleaning up the village or canal. Next clean up, I believe, is Sat 14th on the canal at 10 am. Go and meet residents of Inchicore. I won't be there as I have to work, but maybe on one of the clean ups I might meet you!!!!!
raymond09/06/2014I agree with the last few comments, I know many people in the Crescent, some who do outstanding work in Inchicore on a voluntary basis. I know most of the lads hanging around but they do not live in the Crescent. Now can we please have some positive feedback. Keano you will never sell with the comments you made about the place.
C11/06/2014I do agree with what people say and yes those kids/teenagers are an absolute nightmare. Not sure what can be done but I guess just having a rant about it won't help either so maybe going to the POLICING FORUM MEETING TONIGHT AT 7pm is a good start and better than doing nothing!

raymond11/06/2014I like a lot of other people in the area started going to meetings back in the 80s and are still involved through Residents groups etc where we meet with the gardai and dcc. They are well aware of who is causing these problems, they will admit it, they have brought in a number of children aged around 11/12. I am working so can't attend but I would be slightly wary of attending a public forum, you don't know who is there.
Alison11/06/2014I feel the same. I was talking to a garda and he said they know who is causing trouble. My family were involved in meetings in the 80s too and nothing much happened. There are a lot of forums with the gardai etc so local people
express their views at these, the reps from residents groups are normally there.
tanya12/06/2014Well, I was waiting to see what comments would come from last nights meeting, I didn't find it at all useful. The garda said they haven't the manpower and the corpo man wasn't great, so it is back to the people to sort it out. I would like to know if anyone found the meeting useful, I spoke to a couple of people today but they have already met with the heads at the table.
Ck12/06/2014I was more frustrated after the meeting. there is no solution, just live in fear!
raymond12/06/2014I heard that it wasn't great, all talk and no action.
Judi12/06/2014I'm sorry to hear that the Guards didn't offer any support, but to be honest this isn't acceptable. The Guardai are responsible for this and have a duty to uphold the law, they are also obliged to respond to every situation of threatening behaviour reported to them.
Every time the youths are there the guards should be called and told they are behaving in a threatening manner and they have to respond.
If they don't or you don't feel satisfied a complaint can be made to the Garda Ombudsman who takes the duty of care the Guardai are obliged to have, very seriously.

If it's all talk no action, complain to the guards every time the youths are there causing problems and if they don't resolve it complain to the Garda ombudsman.

It's totally unacceptable to be told they cand do anything or that there isn't enough manpower, this is a serious issue where innocent people feel threatened on their own doorstep!
jim12/06/2014I see 2 fire brigades were called up to the new st michaels estate this evening as a fire had been set. These kids are really feral. I'm from an area in the country and really think this area has massive potential but the problem seems to be the council house areas. The ones up by st michaels are a no go area for any decent people and every time I pass myra close I despair. The rubbish thrown around there is unbelievable. Do people care in these esates. Doesnt look like it
raymond12/06/2014I live in council flat and you cannot say people don't care. There are a lot of decent people living around. I know people are giving out about Emmet crescent but they did win awards, but when the council are doing nothing around the area people get fed up.As someone said to me today that the council are getting the place cleaned up by the Inchicore Environmental Group.
s14/06/2014There are hundreds of community clean up groups up and down the country cleaning up their areas. The reality is the council does not have the resourses to keep areas clean on a daily basis - that's our responsiblity. The IEG is a fantastic group and they should be supported. That group of volunteers took the initiative to set up the clean up group and its a really positive thing for Inchicore. This thread is so negative - it would put anyone moving to the village. It's a very difficult issue to resolve, the incidents just need to be reported to the guards and councillors every time. This doesn't just affect eurospar...if that closes then our post office is gone too.
Jo14/06/2014The youths causing the trouble are all from social welfare backgrounds, so I hope eurospar does close and we lose our post office, send them to a post office in drimnagh for there free money. Tesco inchicore will suit me, they won't put up with gangs of scum intimidating everyone!
Johnny15/06/2014As a man in the middle, of course some people live in council flats and houses and they will always be like that as the welfare will give them a good wage every week for doing nothing. No one in a council flat or house does not have the full sky sports package, it's par for the course of been a knacker. As for the animals that bully normal people going about there working day, they are all from Emmet Cresent and Tyrone Place, I know this as I get the Luas every weekday to work, unlike the animals, sure none of them will ever work!
Ck15/06/2014How dare you say that. I work and live in a council property. I don't have a sky package. I pay all my bills, don't owe a penny to anyone. Just because you pass Emmet Crescent on the way to the Luas and see lads hanging around there, doesn't mean to say that these lads live there. I could name a lot of these lads and I can guarantee you the LIVE in RIALTO, BLUEBELL and DRIMNAGH
raymond15/06/2014Johnny, you have some nerve. Just because people are in social housing doesn't mean they don't work. In Emmet Crescent there are a number of retired single people who worked all their lives. Since you seem to know who is causing this trouble, name them to the gardai or dcc and see where they live. I can name them, not on this forum, but I can tell you who they are. As CK said they are not from the crescent. I am sick of the crescent getting a bad name as are the people living there.
tanya15/06/2014Johnny, I think you have some check. Talk to the gardai and ask them if the people live in the Crescent. The gardai and DCC have told the people in the Crescent to report these lads. Would you report them and risk getting a brick through your window. There is CCTV in the Crescent, so if anyone from the Crescent was causing this trouble, they would be brought in by DCC, that's if DCC are doing their job.
Alison15/06/2014I don't think anyone from Emmet Crescent has responded, maybe they have more important things to do in life than rant on this forum. I know some people there who are carers and who live very good lives. As someone said there are a lot of retired people living there, there are people working who live there. Yesterday morning I was on my way to work and saw a woman from Emmet Crescent out on the canal cleaning up with the group. How many of who that are ranting and raving were out cleaning the canal. I would say very few!
aw15/06/2014Maybe it is time for the forum to close. There only seems to be negative comments, not good for people trying to sell their homes.
raymond15/06/2014Maybe it is time for the forum to close or at least if Paul was to take down this link, I don't think it is fair to Emmet Crescent. Tyrconnell Road have a lot of problems too, you walk up there and the smell of hash is disgusting. Emmet Road is disgraceful with all the shops the way they are. We need positive comments or nobody will be able to sell properties here
GD15/06/2014For your information: the lads you refer to hanging about at the gates are from emmet cresent, Tyrone place, and the Myra estate.

The kids who cause the hassle at the shops are predominantly from Bluebell and Drimnagh, however some are indeed from emmet cresent, Myra and Tyrone place. They are mostly all related to each other.

The debate about where these kids come from is a red herring, it isn't the role of any particular street to exert social control over residents. These kids are unsocialised and unsupervised, their parents have little interest in what they do once they leave their house.

There is only one solution to this: people have to ring kilmainham garda station each and every time they see a crime being committed by these kids. They have to be willing to make a statement. If yee ain't willing to do that (and many aren't due to fear of retaliation) then you have no choice but to grin and bear it. The kids will just get worse as they get older and their parents will never care, in a few years many of these kids will be parents and the cycle repeats itself.

So maybe it's time to accept that we live in a run down area that is slowly becoming ghettoised. If you can move out then do so, if not then keep the head down and the gob shut. This is the reality.
raymond15/06/2014GD. I can tell you for a fact not one lad from Emmet Crescent is involved. I have lived here over 65 yrs so I know what I am talking about. They may hang around the crescent but that is not the crescent's fault. All I can say is something will be done as I was talking to someone who said they were going to take action, I don't know what action but anything will help
A15/06/2014I could (not on this forum) name all the lads involved and give their addresses and I will. I don't live in the crescent but I don't like an area to be branded the way you all are saying. You must all have nothing better to do but rant.
A15/06/2014When I said give their addresses, they are not in Inchicore but Bluebell, drimnagh and Rialto. Remember about half of the crescent are single people, not young people and there are very few youths there. There are settled people there, not young kids.
raymond15/06/2014You are the one with the problem. AS WAS ALREADY SAID THEY COME IN AND OUT OF THE CRESCENT BUT DON'T LIVE THERE. TALK TO DCC OR THE GARDA, THEY WILL TELL YOU, IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE US. I NEVER SAID I LIVED IN THE CRESCENT BUT I WAS ON VARIOUS GROUPS IN INCHCIORE AND KNOW THE TRUTH.
Alison16/06/2014Well said, the last 2 comments. I have to say the people in Emmet Crescent have remained dignified by not commenting about the problem, they are trying to deal with it through the proper channels. WE all know the truth, that the lads don't live in the crescent. END.
Paul16/06/2014Good to see lively discussion on this topic but I've had to delete a few posts due to abusive comments. Come on, you're only giving yourself high blood pressure.

Moderator
Johnny17/06/2014Walked past Emmet cresent on the way home from work today, the usual intimidating crowd there but the good weather seems to have brought more of them out. Are there not some loitering laws which can move them on or just get rid of them from the area?
USA17/06/2014Can they not just park a garda car at Emmet Cresent for a couple of weeks, a lot of people are been affected by this and the gardai are supposed to serve the people.
Angie27/06/2014Can we please agree to stop naming a particular street or complex in Inchicore as being the source of this anti-social behavior? You'll find good and bad in every single part of city but the vast majority of people in Inchicore are really decent.The person who started this discussion asked if anything can be done to stop the kids hanging around Eurospar.What about putting more pressure on Eurospar themselves to get staff to call the guards more often? How many people have lodged complaints with Eurospar Ireland? En mass complaining to the likes of Catherine Byrne might get her to show an interest.The next general election is less than 24 months away, now is the time to make this an election issue.Everyone on this forum should take some kind of action.
cath29/06/2014We should all just look on the bright side here: as long as these brats are hanging around the shops then they aren't hassling our children as they play out on our streets. I am on Ring Street and there's lots of children playing out everyday and they are no hassle. My own are teenagers now and they have never had a problem. So let's be glad that the bad kids are hanging around spar and well away from residential streets like those in my area or bulfin or cie.
Angie29/06/2014Plenty of people live around the Eurospar too so the intimidating behaviour is a real problem for many residents.
Judi29/06/2014Cath that's quite a disgusting attitude you have, "not in my back yard" !
What kind of society would we live in if we all lived like that?
cath29/06/2014Judy: just looking on the bright side lov, every situation has advantages and disadvantages. Maybe you should go for a nice Sunday walk and stop worrying about what kind of society we have.
Ali29/06/2014Cath, if people are not concerned the place will be ruined. We have to do something before it gets out of hand.
cath29/06/2014Ali: do what? Any suggestions? This forum has had how many posts over the last few months and what has been done? Nothing can be done, there is no solution. I challenge any person viewing this forum to come up with a practical and sensible solution! You can't because there isn't any.

I'm waiting.....
Lauri30/06/2014Information has to be passed on to the gardai. We cannot let these youths rule Inchicore. Cath, elderly people are afraid to go into Eurospar to collect their money. There were a few meetings and a few arrests so things are happening. We can't stand by and do nothing!
Oisin02/07/2014Interesting thread, and a lot of things said.

I think that if we had a more vibrant village with more people around Emmet Road then the kids outside Spar would not be as intimidating. Now that there are nearly no other shops open, except for bookies with no windows and takeaways, there is no one around to stop any messing.

I think we the people of Inchicore need to get together, with the owners of Spar, people who know about youth work, and maybe even the kids themselves (!) and come up with a solution.

Morale with some of the guards doesn't seem to be great at the moment, between the cutbacks and the last commissioners carry on etc., and some of them seem stuck in the old school "lock them up and throw away the key" mindset which hasn't worked in the past.

Maybe we need to ask the council to prioritise fixing up the village (the mistake with the pedestrian lights has been there 6 months and still nothing) and we or the council need to put pressure on the owners of empty shop units to do something.

Who's in?
Oisin02/07/2014Interesting thread, and a lot of things said.

I think that if we had a more vibrant village with more people around Emmet Road then the kids outside Spar would not be as intimidating. Now that there are nearly no other shops open, except for bookies with no windows and takeaways, there is no one around to stop any messing.

I think we the people of Inchicore need to get together, with the owners of Spar, people who know about youth work, and maybe even the kids themselves (!) and come up with a solution.

Morale with some of the guards doesn't seem to be great at the moment, between the cutbacks and the last commissioners carry on etc., and some of them seem stuck in the old school "lock them up and throw away the key" mindset which hasn't worked in the past.

Maybe we need to ask the council to prioritise fixing up the village (the mistake with the pedestrian lights has been there 6 months and still nothing) and we or the council need to put pressure on the owners of empty shop units to do something.

Who's in?
Alan C03/07/2014Oisin, I think you have the right idea here, that's really the only way to resolve this and we all need to work together.

I would like to add to the discussion that the SPAR shop have covered all of their windows along Spa Road so there is no "Passive Surveilance" along here.
I think this is against planning permission rules as its usually a standard condition of all pp's not to block out windows.
Perhaps we can raise this with SPAR too?
Or with the planning enforcement.
Liam18/07/2014Just walking from the Luas this evening and noticed a group coming from emmet crescent and burning stuff where st michaels used to be. The smell is awful. I really wanted to say something but these guys looked dangerous. It's a pity a place like emmet crescent brings down the whole area.
Resident19/07/2014Interesting conversation. There seem to be a lot in people who have experienced incidents here? I would ask have you reported them? ALL of them? Every one?
The guards are having their resources cut regularly, they even have to share cars across stations so they concern themselves with serious crime. We are all paying taxes for our local area now too which *should* go into local services, these will go to the areas with the highest statistics in pollution, crime, anti social behaviour etc. That is how the decisions are made.
If you don't report it , nothing happens. I have been reporting everything I see going on in the area to the numbers below and action seems to be taken, or I do hear back from the relevant departments, surprisingly. People want to do their jobs but you will find where they don't, they don't have the resources. so here are the numbers for you to report everything and anything you see around the area:

Report a littering or environmental incident: eg dumping in the canal or graffiti :
(01) 679 6186
http://bit.ly/1rp7M64


Report a dangerous or unsightly building:
(01) 670 7316 24hours http://bit.ly/1rp7En3

report a crime antisocial or suspicious activity to kilmainham station:
+35316669700
to kevin street
01 666 9482

All the above have resulted in action for me :
I don't bother with catherine.byrne@oir.ie
Telephone: 01-4735080 - 01-4735087
Dail Telephone: 01-6183083

Who will just call the relevant body on your behalf.
**** REPORT EVERYTHING **** it works eventually.
Liam19/07/2014Good post resident and I agree with you piece about getting Catherine Byrne doing something about the incidents she's been annonymas these days (and I voted for her) I did call kilmainham gardai about the burning last night and they said they would send a car up.
Oisin19/07/2014It is a better idea to report the burning of waste to the EPA's 24 hour National Environmental Complaints Line, lo-call telephone number 1850 365 121.
They will contact local Gardaí and can also follow up in other ways.
mick 20/07/2014I rang Kilmainham Garda station several times but they never came up. The lads that are burning copper have threatened a number of people who confronted them, so I don't think ringing the EPA would be enough.
chriss20/07/2014I have heard that people are afraid to ring because the travellers are threatening people. The guards and dcc don't offer any hope as they both know the culprits. I heard someone mention that we should all meet and march over to the lads when they are burning copper, just to let them know that we don't agree with them. The fumes are toxic and some people are terrified they might get cancer from the copper burning.
raymond21/07/2014The gardai will tell u they don't have the manpower. I don't know if there is any solution, these lads are not afraid of anyone or anything. I don't know about people gathering to stop the burning, I heard mention of this, it might make the situation worse. DCC are supposed to have the cameras on that site and surely they can give this to the gardai. I am sure something will be done soon as I heard The President is coming to open Thornton Heights on 18th Aug, the people are finally moving in, so maybe that will make a difference.
Judi21/07/2014Raymond, that's not actually true. If nobody reports the anti-social behavior to the Guards then they will not assign manpower to deal with it. It's only when it's reported that they can assign manpower to deal with it as its a scarce resource.
If the youths are behaving in a way that makes people feel threatened then this is a very serious issue and the Guards will respond to every report of threatening behavior as they are required to.

I think reporting this to the guards is the only way to stop it, unfortunately SPAR are not doing this.
Dan21/07/2014As a future Inchicore resident I am rather concerned with this issue.

Does anyone know if this issue is a by-product of summer or is this an issue that happens all year round?
anna22/07/2014I think the problem is only a summer issue, Inchicore is a great place to live.
Ian22/07/2014This problem will be resolved. There are a lot of good decent people in Inchicore. There are a lot of actors, tv stars etc living here, I don't think they would live here if there too many problems.
WMT23/07/2014Anti-social behaviour is again raising its head in the area. As it did years ago when we were told it would be dealt with, but it was let fester and go on for years before a stop was put to it.

Politicians are a waste of time as they are just part of a self-serving self-interest group.

Never confront the perpetrators, always ring the Gardai - there's a hardcore who just want to destroy as proven a little while ago when a gang decided to start to burn down the new trees on the 'green' opposite Tyrone Place - Gardai responded very quickly and dealt with matters.
Peter Mc23/07/2014I agree 100% with you WMT. Report all incidents of criminality directly to the Kilmainham Gardai. You do not even have to give your name to the Gardai if you don't want to. The Gardai in Kilmainham are very keen to take action. I advise that when telephoning Kilmainham Garda station to report an incident that you obtain the name of the Garda who takes your call so that you can follow up the call with the Gardai if necessary. If you have been a victim of the criminality you are entitled to ask the Gardai for the number of the incident on the Garda PULSE database so that you can follow it up with the Gardai.
mary24/07/2014I rang the gardai about a very serious incident and I am still waiting on someone to respond. I don't want to go into details about what happened to me, in case any of the youths or their families read this. Thankfully someone came to my rescue but I am now terrified to stay in Inchicore.
Peter Mc24/07/2014Hi Mary, that's terrible that such a thing happened to you. I advise that you contact Inspector Declan Downey in Kilmainham. There is a Gardai Neighbourhood Watch scheme in our Estate and Inspector Declan Downey stated to us that he would welcome any calls about such matters.
mary24/07/2014My friend knows Declan Downey, she is on a committee with him, but as she told me he is a PR man, all talk and no action. I am going down the country for a few weeks to decide what I will do. My friend who knows the gardai well says they are possibly aware of what to me, she even reported a few things and they said they would look into things but nothing was done.
Peter Mc24/07/2014Hi Mary, All I know is that I personally have found Inspector Downey to be very helpful. You should give him a call.
WMT24/07/2014Hi Mary.

For anything serious 999 should always be used as this has a record from when the operator answers to past when you finish the call - including what action was taken on the call. For 999 it's all on computer and there's an audio recording of your call.
Johnboy25/07/2014Thinks have definitely calmed down at spar. They have changed the doors and had 2 huge polish security lads on the other day but they seem to gone back to 1 now. The problem with Emmett Cresent is still there, there must have been at least 20 of them hanging around there on Wednesday, all making comments and intimidating innocent people going about their daily business. I taught we had loitering laws in Ireland but they don't seem to apply for Emmett Cresent.
resident26/07/2014Loitering laws should be brought into place. I live in Emmet Crescent and have to face these louts every day. DCC and gardai know where these lads live, they said so at the recent meeting. They said they were from Ballyfermot, Drimnagh , Bluebell and Rialto. We have made numerous complaints but unless you want to be named as the person making the complaint, nothing is done. Who would want to stand against them.
WMT26/07/2014Regarding [gangs etc] loitering - if they are breaking the law there's CCTV in both Tyrone Place and Emmet Crescent, the Gardai and DCC need no more to back up complaints.
Pat26/07/2014If you ask DCC to look at the cameras all they ever say is the cameras are not pointing in that direction. We have an issue with the cameras for years, DCC tell you we are watching something else. At the recent meeting with DCC, Gardaí and residents, someone was handing out flyers naming the culprits and even had their addresses. I am not sure if they gave them to Gardaí and DCC.Inspector Downey gave very hope that anything would be done, he just said they might move to Thornton Heights when that opens. I would not have much faith with either the Gardaí or DCC.
WMT28/07/2014Hi Pat,

Yes DCC [and others] are full of excuses and that's why the area is sliding back to unacceptability. If there's an ongoing problem in a certain spot in the area DCC should have the cameras pointing at that spot.

With DCC anti-social behaviour only becomes a problem when someone complains. So the resident demanding something be done is DCC's real problem - DCC don't like being pushed and at times react in the wrong way.

I know of some problems of serious anti-social behaviour where there was 100% proof and residents were willing to be named but it was still allowed to go on for a very long time.
Johnboy30/07/2014There is 1 particular red head teen, who is the leader of the Emmet Cresent scum. I'd love to see him have a bad accident, maybe that cud happen, who knows?
sean30/07/2014That is not a very nice thing to say. I know the lad in question and while he is a bad apple the guards need to act. He lives in Myra Close, but the main ringleader is from Drimnagh and the others from Rialto. The Drimnagh lad is barred from Inchicoe but is here everyday
Johnboy30/07/2014True Sean, I apologise for saying that, I don't wish harm on anyone. But that red head teen is out of control, say him trying to break into a home last week, no way was I calling the guards as they'd want my name and address which would mean I'd have to leave my home, which I can't afford to do.
Peter Mc30/07/2014Johnboy, you never have to give your name and address to the Gardai when reporting a crime. Dial either 999 or Kilmainham Garda Station 6669700. The Gardai have informed us in our Neighborhood Watch meetings that they have absolutely no difficulty with confidential anonymous reporting of crime to the Gardai by members of the public.
Angie30/07/2014Second that re confidenital reporting. The many decent people of Inchicore need to make it their business to report everything they possibly can. If Kilmainham station are bombarded with complaints something might eventually be done by the powers that be.I don't blame the guards as they're probably doing their best with limited resources but we still need to keep the pressure on.Someone mentioned a lad who is banned from the area but down here everyday,have you reported him? There has been more interest in this discussion than any other on this forum,hopefully the message of don't wait for someone else to report it,do it yourself is resonating with people.
sean30/07/2014I can assure you people are reporting to the guards when they see the lads from Bluebell and the one from Drimnagh who are not allowed into Inchicore. I have to say I see a lot of gardai on patrol in the past week, hopefully it will continue. However I heard there was copper burning tonight up on the site. This has to be addressed as the fumes are toxic.
James Murphy02/08/2014These lads are out of control and the vast majority of them live in Rialto, Drimnagh and Bluebell. The ringleader is from Rialto and he is in his early 20s has glasses and a star tattoo on his neck and has the Bluebell Traveler brothers holding drugs for him and breaking into peoples property. This group need to be barred from Inchciore and tagged.
mick02/08/2014I agree that these are the guys causing all the trouble but I think the information should be given both to dcc and the guards and let them deal with it. They are all dcc tenants and they can give a warning to their parents.
James Murphy02/08/2014All the info has been given but DCC and the Gardai have met with the parents but they don't care. In recent weeks they have damaged about four cars in Tyrone Place, burnt two unoccupied apartments in Godenbridge, attacked security and staff in Spar, kicked doors in of peoples homes and property, robbed bikes outside local shops and car parks, assaulted innocent people who were were doing nothing, attacked security at the new development on the canal, spitting and making racial comments at black people. I really hate to say this but as tax payer Im really pissed off that my hard earned money is paying for their social welfare/house as each family has about six kids so they are getting about €1,000 a week each, and what thanks do we get well they damage our property.
local resident02/08/2014I live in Emmet Crescent and have to say it is quiet at present. The gardai seem to have moved the lads on. Where were the apartments burned in Goldenbridge. There is an empty apartment at the front of the crescent, it is waiting for someone to move in.
WMT02/08/2014"I live in Emmet Crescent and have to say it is quiet at present. The gardai seem to have moved the lads on"

Yes - a number of them into Tyrone Place.

Moving 'them on' is not really good enough - unless ALL the decent locals stand together the problem will not be solved and the only way is to get them out of the AREA altogether.
James Murphy03/08/2014They have been moved to the stairwells in Tyrone Place. I would love to get a few mates and stand outside their homes drinking cans hurling abuse at their family and throwing stones at their windows and see how they like it, absolute scum the lot of them.
Grace05/08/2014Would it be a good idea to pass some of these comments on to the media. Concerned citizens looking after their own locality etc.
Perhaps a bit of media attention would bring some results.
Jo06/08/2014I don't think the media would have any interest in this as half of Dublin is controlled by scum gangs. Personally I had an attack of vandalism done on my property over the weekend, I won't say what happened as the scum that done it are probably reading this but they are using feral street kids, to target innocent hard working people. I'd stay out of the chipper, it's always full of them.
Sean06/08/2014In response to James Murphy, I saw the ring leader in eurospar yesterday, knew it was him from your description. he has 3 star tattoos on his neck, he wasn't wearing glasses but his eyes were squinting or maybe he is getting used to wearing lenses. He does look like a real tough nut but what a fuckin idiot he is going around with stars on his neck, anyone can ID him. I thought the gang leaders are supposed to keep a low profile, this lad obviously wants attention with his neck tattoos, he is a big man amongst innocent people. The red head teen is his number 2. These lads have no future they'll end up working for the crumlin/drimnagh gangs and it's mount joy or death.
mick06/08/2014I don't think it is a good idea to bring in the media, Inchicore has a bad name as it is and the media would make it ten times worse. Some people can't sell their homes because of this forum.
Peter Mc06/08/2014The media might not be interested as Inchicore is much safer than lots of other areas in Dublin. I don't know of anybody who can't sell their house because of this forum. The Dublin property market is booming. Perhaps the sellers are in negative equity and are asking too much.

The forum is only reflecting the truth that there is a growing anti-social problem in Inhcicore. Rather than seeking to keep the truth from prospective property purchasers, perhaps people selling property could do one of the many constructive things mentioned on this forum so as to defeat the anti-social problem.
mick06/08/2014I know 2 families that were almost certain that they had buyers for their homes. One family asked the estate what happened and was told the couple buying the house was checking out online and discovered what people were saying on this forum.
WMT06/08/2014"Some people can't sell their homes because of this forum"

Absolutely not - if they can't sell their homes it's because of the crime, anti-social behaviour etc. Hiding it by going into denial is the worst thing to do.

Example - St Michael's Estate was destroyed because ALL the authorities went into denial for a very long time - that cannot be allow to happen again and to blame this forum and the people trying to show up the behaviour in the area and get something done is just plain wrong.
mick06/08/2014There is crime in every area but it can be hidden because people are worried about the value of their houses. I have family in Terenure and Dalkey and believe it or not there is antisocial behaviour there too!
Angie06/08/2014Every single suburb in Dublin has its fair share of anti-social behaviour to deal with. People are being honest on this forum, sticking our heads in the sand won't help us address our concerns...Or sell much property in the long run. Personally, I would love to see more action from our elected representatives.I know who I won't be voting for in the next election!
j06/08/2014I had an interview for the apts on thomas davis st today for myself and 2 kids heard tge area not too bad well not as bad as yrs ago..... Getting alot of mixed comments. Im unsure what to do?
Local06/08/2014"j", By all means read this forum for information however it would be a good idea to some research of your own. Ask the Gardai in Kilmainham for a general synopsis of crime in the area. Visit the area at various times of day and night to get a sense of anything you might be concerned about. Don't believe anything the estate agent tells you. If you doubt that your children will be safe, then don't rent the apartment.
Anne07/08/2014The forum is very good. I live in Inchicore all my live. A few years ago I retired to Wicklow, thought I would get out of the city. Big mistake! Drug use and dealing was rampant. My house was broken into 3 times, twice while I was there. I never like going out for a drink because there was a few louts always hanging around. I sold my house and moved back to Inchicore.
James Murphy07/08/2014Sean that is a different person but has same type of tattoos and is heavily involved in the Crumlin/Drimnagh feud and Im worried he is back on the scene.
Sean08/08/2014I think this forum is about gangs hanging around eurospar. I think this problem his now been resolved as it's at least 1month since I saw any of them hanging around outside eurospar. Catherine Byrne has her office and clinic in Inchicore village less then a 1minute walk from eurospar and not once did she help with this issue. She is retiring at the next elections with €70,000 a year for the rest of her life.
Angie08/08/2014I voted for Catherine Byrne and her daughter in the past, not anymore! We need to make this a serious election issue next time round.The lads may not be hanging around the Eurospar anymore but that doesn't mean Inchicore is rid of them,the problem still exists.
Local Resident12/08/2014Does Anybody know on an Andrew Foley from Inchicore who was given an anti-social behaviour order ?

This lovely gentleman is mentioned in the Irish Times today in an article on anti-social behaviour orders:

"Mr Guiney last February gave evidence in the case of 19-year-old Andrew Foley, from Sarsfield Road, Inchicore, Dublin who had his access to the city-centre severely restricted for two years under an anti-social behaviour order handed down by Judge John O’Neill at Dublin District Court."
Sean13/08/2014In response to Local Resident, Andrew Foleys photo is here in the sunday world.

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/crime-desk/asbo-man-told-gardai-hed-move-on-after-he-sold-downers
WMT13/08/2014Hi Sean,

Zimmovane is a prescription only medication and therefore by law can only be dispensed [sold] by registered pharmacies on production of a prescription.

Therefore, as soon as the dealer is seen to sell/dispense just one tab - it's obvious they are not a registered pharmacy and a prescription has not been produced - yet it's said the Gardai cannot stop these dealers [or confiscate the medication] - really?
Sean14/08/2014Look WMT, this forum is about gangs hanging around the shops. This issue has been resolved. The gangs have gone from the shops. I'm delighted they are gone, I'm sure there hounding other people now but thank god they are gone, I can now go to the shops in peace!
mick14/08/2014This "thread" is about the gangs hanging around the shops but the gangs may not be gone for long. They are banned at present and while they are behaving themselves at present, they will eventually drift back.