Pedestrian lights - Emmet Road at shops

AuthorMessage DateMessage
Oisin06/02/2014What do people think of the location of the planned pedestrian lights on Emmet Road just down from the workmans club?

I think that they should have been located at the junction with spa road (outside Eurospar) for a number of reasons.

Firstly, I am worried that motorists will only see the lights when they come around the bend at Eurospar, or over the hump of the hill, which is probably a bit late to see a red light if you are going at 50kmh.

Also, parking spaces have been taken out and double yellow lines put in, but cars are still parking right up to the lights.

If the crossing was a zebra crossing instead, and was at the bend itself, and if the footpath was built out a little, then pedestrians would see cars and cars see pedestrians. Also people would not have to wait to cross an empty road (which they don't) and cars would not have to stop at a red light with nobody crossing.

I have put a post about this up on SeeClickFix as well, so do have a look:
https://www.seeclickfix.com/issues/922569-location-of-new-pedestrian-lights-some-problems
Judi06/02/2014Hi Oisin, no offence but you are a bit late pointing this one out.
Local councellors have already brought a halt to the installation of these lights for the same reasons you mention. They were not requested but our local councellors.
The Area comittee have actually got funding in place to install Pedestrian lights further up Emmet road at the junction of St Vincents St (not far from the lights in question) corrins in both directions.

What you point out is all true but you are way way behind whats going on!

I suggest you might watch the last Sount Central Area Comittee meeting online.
Judi06/02/2014Also to be constructive perhaps I could suggest that you might have a look at campaiging for ballards in the same spot, and also further up at Kilmainham cross (in fron of Four Star Pizza) as there is a major problem in both locations regarding cars parked on the footpath, and both are major routes to schools.
Very often at both locations buggies or wheelchairs would not be able to pass the parked cars without going out on the road into traffic.

SHEA 06/02/2014I have complained to both the city council and the Gardai about illegal parking on the footpath at Kilmainham cross.The city council said take it up with the Gardai and they in turn told me to take it up with the clampers! With local and European elections coming up maybe we can raise issue with whoever comes to our doors looking for our votes.
Oisin06/02/2014Thanks Judi
That's one of the reasons I use see click fix: everyone can see what's going on there.

What do you think of the idea of having a zebra crossing and a 30 mph zone?

I think having the crossing at Vincent street will still have some problems, given the hump at the top of the hill, and also how steep things are at the railings.
Oisin06/02/2014Surely the elected councillors should have ensured that this was stopped before the work was started, and that local residents were consulted?

I think we should have actual enforcements rather than bollards, because bollards make it more difficult for people with disabilities and people pushing prams to get up and down the footpaths.

Emmet Road/SCR junction cars on footpath issue here
http://seeclickfix.com/issues/378740
Judi06/02/2014Hi Oisin,

My understanding (from the webcast) is that the local councellors were not informed about these traffic lights and interveined when then saw them being installed.

I also think a 30km/hr zone with zebra crossing is a terrible idea. Inchicore Village needs a lot of enhancements to it, but this is certainly not one of them.
As stated before deal with the illegal parking first.

If you want to persue enforcement go for it, but you are a bit late on this too as its already been tried and the guards have already responded, you will get the same response and the same run-around and waste a lot of time.

Our parking controls are not perfect and sometimes (as in both of these cases) enhanced road design and publick space imporvements are required to control parking.
Chapelizoid Village is a perfect example of this, and its a model that should be adopted for Inchicore and Kilmainham.

Chapelizoid village is a great sucess, and if instead of all the work that was done they had tried a 30 km/hr + zebra crossing type solution it would have achieved very little.

Sorry for being so critical but I think the whole are needs a much greater vision and I know you will be running in the upcoming local elections I think it will help to get some honest feedback.
I'll look forward to seeing your ideas.
raymond07/02/2014We were looking for lights at the Workman's Club for years. People coming down from Vincent's St and crossing over to get a bus need traffic lights.I am delighted with this news.
Andrew07/02/2014I feel the current location is good and has been needed for years. The number of times I have seen people dashing across in front of traffic when they see a bus arriving... very dangerous. Also it can be very dangerous trying to cross from Camac Close side to Vincent St to get Luas in the morning. Proper speed ramps are needed on Emmet Road and Inchicore Road, which is a race track
Andrew07/02/2014Watching the area committee meeting is extraordinary. It's amazing to think the road can be dug up and pedestrian lights installed without the local councillors knowing anything about it
Andrew07/02/2014http://www.dublincity.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/124620
Oisin07/02/2014I think it's extraordinary that they can dig the place up without even speaking to local people!

There should be some sort of a planning process where people can see what is planned, without having to go through elected reps.
Local22/02/2014I agree 100% with you Raymond. I think the new traffic lights near the workman's club on emmet road will be in an excellent location as there is a large amount of pedestrians crossing the road there regularly. I also would welcome more traffic calming measures in Inchicore village.
Mgt23/02/2014I totally agree with the new traffic lights at the workmen's club, the amount of elderly people who risk their lives trying to cross over to the bus stop
Oisin24/02/2014Margaret, Local & Raymond,
Not disputing at all that there needs to be a crossing, but where they started putting the lights before Christmas was half way between the workmans club and spar, and was dangerous because it would be hard to see the lights from a car coming over the hump of the hill at Vincent St, or around the bend in the road at spar.

I actually think that there should be 2 pedestrian (zebra) crossings - 1 at Spar, right on the little bend, and 1 at Vincent Street. This wouldn't affect traffic much at all. If they put in traffic lights then you will be left sitting on the wrong side of the road for ages at random times, like the pedestrian lights on Grattan Crescent at the Ulster Bank.
Oisin24/02/2014Margaret, Local & Raymond,
Not disputing at all that there needs to be a crossing, but where they started putting the lights before Christmas was half way between the workmans club and spar, and was dangerous because it would be hard to see the lights from a car coming over the hump of the hill at Vincent St, or around the bend in the road at spar.

I actually think that there should be 2 pedestrian (zebra) crossings - 1 at Spar, right on the little bend, and 1 at Vincent Street. This wouldn't affect traffic much at all. If they put in traffic lights then you will be left sitting on the wrong side of the road for ages at random times, like the pedestrian lights on Grattan Crescent at the Ulster Bank.
John25/02/2014I'm in total agreement that the area needs a zebra crossing. However watching the video of the DCC meeting that Andrew posted I'm in total disagreement with Cllr Daly in relation to having it up by St Michael's church. In the morning I take the bus outside the working mans club and coming from the tramyards I don't intend to walk all the way up to St Michaels church to cross the road and then walk back down to the bus stop. Crossing the road on Emmet Road is awful. I've spent 5 minutes on one side waiting for traffic to pass and sometimes you just have to take a chance and make a dash across. Maybe if they fixed the speed ramps on the road it would also help...John
Local25/02/2014Hi Oisin, surely you mean Cllr Byrne not Cllr Daly. It was Cllr Byrne who was suggesting that the traffic lights be at St Michael's church on the video of the DCC South Central Area Committee.

Oisin, it's worth remembering that there is a difference between a zebra crossing and traffic lights. What is needed in Inchicore Village Centre at Emmet Road near the Workingman's Club are traffic lights with a relatively short wait time after the button is pressed. Additional traffic calming measures in the Village are needed also.
M25/02/2014I return from work every day about 4pm - getting off the bus outside the working men's club, and attempt to cross the road towards the Tramyard.
I like where the new lights were going to be put. If they are pedestrian (entirely controlled by a button push), not traffic lights, traffic will not be delayed unnecessarily. There is so much traffic during rush hour that the likelihood of a car coming along at speed and not seeing the red light is slim. How about the type of very high up (American) lights that could be seen from a distance.
There's absolutely no way I would walk down to the church - the opposite direction to my home, to cross the road.
I go work in the morning via the pedestrian lights on Grattan Crescent, which are fine - only problem being the long wait for the lights to change.
The main difficulty is that a residential area is a main artery from the city centre out of Dublin.
Oisin25/02/2014Hi
The reasons I think there should be zebra crossings and not pedestrian crossings is because that is what best practice is going towards because of experience and science of traffic engineers worldwide, for this sort of street.

The Department of the Environmnet and Department of Transport have come up with a manual for urban roads, which favours moving the balance back to pedestrian control, which means more zebra crossings where pedestrians don't have to wait. Traffic lights where you have to wait more than 30 seconds are likely to be ignored (studies show this) Motorists in Dublin tend also to speed up at an amber light, and not count the first 5 seconds of red as red. With a pedestrian crossing the pedestrian is always first.

This would not hold traffic up as much as traffic lights either, because, as you find with the Grattan Crescent ones, the lights go red when the traffic is clear, and then green when the traffic is already backed up, so nobody wins.

Emmet Road is quite narrow, so there is no reason why a zebra crossing can't go at Vincent's Street and at the Eurospar corner. The footpath could be built out (like the bus stop at the Pidgeon club) so that parking could go right up to the crossing (otherwise you need a 5m no parking zone)
Oisin25/02/2014Also, with regard to traffic calming, the best way to do that is to have plenty of parking, and plenty of zebra crossings, and narrow the driving carriageway. This is what they do in most countries. Bollards and ramps just mean traffic veer around them and speed up again after them.
Vincent H25/02/2014I fully agree that a zebra crossing with flashing yellow lights would be more appropriate for this proposed pedestrian crossing. It will avoid unnecessary red lights for passing traffic, while also giving pedestrians the opportunity to cross when they address the crossing and traffic has stopped for them.
M25/02/2014I have a daily problem crossing the road and am concerned that this debate does not rumble on and nothing gets done.
A general problem is total lack of enforcement, e.g. parking on the pavement outside shops - completely blocking the path leading to the bus stop / working men's club. I would like heavy bollards like those on Spa Road there.
Vincent H25/02/2014My understanding is that DCC Roads & Traffic Dept is aware that a couple of hundred people need to cross the road every day to get to the bus stop in front of the Workmen's Club for their daily commute. They also want to avoid further narrowing Emmet Rd as it a major thoroughfare in and out of the city centre. I suggest everyone in support of completion of this zebra crossing should contact their local councillor, as I suspect this is where the current delay is.
SHEA 26/02/2014Traffic coming from the City should be using the N4 bypass and not traveling through Inchicore village on their way to the Naas Rd and beyond.One of the problems I feel is the ban on right hand turns at Kilmainham cross which forces motorists to continue on towards Inchicore village as they leave the City.You can see how the village gets choked with traffic on big match days in Croke Park with fans going home the traditional route their parents took.Is this caused by poor signposting?I agree also with the comment that the area both Inchicore and Kilmainham has a hugh problem with cars parked on foothpaths.I pay the City Council to park on the street and it seems unfair that others feel free to avail of free parking on our foothpaths.I have brought this up with both DCC and local Gardai but they are not interested.
m26/02/2014Why no clampers ?
Oisin27/02/2014Vincent
Instead of, or as well as contacting councillors, people can e-mail traffic@dublincity.ie and make their comments.
Oisin
Peter McDonagh28/02/2014I saw a man on a wheelchair attempting to cross emmet road near the workmans club today where we are meant to get new pedestrian traffic lights. We need traffic lights here urgently ! A zebra crossing isn't sufficient for old, infirm or disabled persons. Pedesttian taffic lights are the best option here.
Oisin06/03/2014Peter
I disagree.
Pedestrian lights are intended to shift the balance to motorists so that they don't need to worry about anything other than a red light. They are meant for wider roads with faster traffic flow rates than Inchicore road.

Zebra crossings allow elderly or disabled people cross at their own pace, and motorists simply have to stop.

I have seen elderly people needing two attempts to cross at pedestrian lights at the corner of Bulfin and Emmet Roads. Not pleasant for them on a rainy day.
judi06/03/2014Oisin that's a ridiculous thing to say, Pedestrian lights are obviously for the benefit of PEDESTRIANS. Motorist passing thorough would no doublt prefer to see no pedestrian lights at all.

Zebra crossings are dangerous for pedestrians, particularily those who are visually impaired as it requires the pedestrian to be aware of oncoming traffic.
Traffic lights have audible signals so that those with poor vision can cross safely.

Im pretty sure the elderly lady crossing the road would prefer to do so on a familiar and trustworthy green signal rather than just walk out into traffic at a dedicated point.
Oisín Ó hAlmhain28/03/2014Judi
I am afraid I have to disagree with you, as would the people from "living streets" ( the UK charity for pedestrians) and the Department for Environment/Department of transport in their manual for urban streets.

Zebra crossings put the onus back on motorists to stop and wait for people to cross. Most traffic light crossings simply don't allow enough time for people to cross and put people under pressure to hurry. The sounds were added for visually impaired people, and do help, but they too should not be put under pressure.
Oisín Ó hAlmhain28/03/2014Judi
I am afraid I have to disagree with you, as would the people from "living streets" ( the UK charity for pedestrians) and the Department for Environment/Department of transport in their manual for urban streets.

Zebra crossings put the onus back on motorists to stop and wait for people to cross. Most traffic light crossings simply don't allow enough time for people to cross and put people under pressure to hurry. The sounds were added for visually impaired people, and do help, but they too should not be put under pressure.
E04/07/2014I see DCC have done some further work on this area, erecting permanent bollards and extending the path outwards on the southern side of the street, which does help pedestrians crossing.

Does anyone know, is it the intention now to install the pedestrian lights, or make this into a zebra crossing, or just leave as it is now?
Liam23/07/2014Great to see the new traffic lights going up in the village centre. Maybe now I will be able to get across the road for a bus in the morning without having to put my life in danger A positive outcome
Peter Mc23/07/2014The new Emmet Road traffic lights are a massive improvement in the village. I agree entirely with you Liam. Well done to those involved.
Vincent H28/07/2014Great to see some positive comments about the pedestrian crossing. It took almost 4 years to convince DCC to do something about this - with no help from any of the previous local councillors, it has to be said. According to the latest census, about 300-400 people have to cross the road to get the bus every day, and this will make it a little bit safer for them. Some credit to the DCC traffic engineers too, who managed to come up with a solution that retained parking spaces and loading zones for the businesses too! And the added bollards will keep cars off the pavement. Apparently they'll fix the rest of the pavements soon as an extension of this.
Vincent H29/07/2014Great to see some positive comments about the pedestrian crossing. It took almost 4 years to convince DCC to do something about this - with no help from any of the previous local councillors, it has to be said. According to the latest census, about 300-400 people have to cross the road to get the bus every day, and this will make it a little bit safer for them. Some credit to the DCC traffic engineers too, who managed to come up with a solution that retained parking spaces and loading zones for the businesses too! And the added bollards will keep cars off the pavement. Apparently they'll fix the rest of the pavements soon as an extension of this.
M04/08/2014Just back from holiday to see new lights - DCC followed my suggestion (see above) of high up American style traffic lights !! Very pleased.
Actually think they must have concluded it was the only way to do it in a tricky spot. How do you feel about it Oisin ?
E04/08/2014They still haven't turned on the lights, for actual use! Maybe that will happen in another month or two! It seems to be a very slow process, but great to see a good solution being arrived at...
Local05/08/2014Yeah, a zebra or pelican crossing would have been unsuitable at that location and those advocating for that must admit defeat and move on.

Myself and many others are absolutely delighted with the new traffic light controlled pedestrian crossing.
M05/08/2014Not suggesting Oisin should feel defeated, just that this is a good solution - can be seen from a distance
M07/08/2014Traffic lights on !!!!
Oisin08/08/2014I am delighted that they have finally got this done, and well done to the people who campaigned for it and the people who got them to change the original plans.

The high level traffic lights sort out the visibility problem for motorists over the bump of the hill and around the corner - just wondering whether maybe there should be low level ones as well (didn't notice if there was the other day)

I would have put the bollards a bit closer to the road so that two prams could pass unhindered, but there you go.

The part of the footpath which is brought outwards to the level of the parked cars is exactly what I had mind for the crossing and helps maintain parking spaces, while not cutting down on pedestrian visibility.

I never did expect the city council to actually follow the best practice in the national manual. It takes time for large organisations to change but they will eventually.

My ideas for two zebra crossings would ultimately work as part of an upgrade to the whole street which would see some of the parking spaces moved to the north side of the road, some permanent flower beds put in, The sharp hill at the road outside Croughs pub made easier in some way, and the strange step on the building next door removed. This would make the village a more welcoming place for pedestrians and might attract some businesses back, which would in turn cut down on the antisocial atmosphere some people find.

Finally on zebra crossings v traffic lights - how the time the lights will be crucial. Think of a zebra crossing when you are left waiting for a green man in the lashing rain while your bus pulls away on the other side of the road! (The inconsistent traffic lights on Grattan Crescent at the end of South Terrace would be a case in point)
Local16/08/2014Oisin, there are low level lights at the crossing also. They have always been there. I respectfully disagree with you, a zebra crossing there would have been pure madness. It's time to give up on your campaign for having a zebra crossing instead of traffic lights.

I see you have run unsuccessfully for election for the Green Party before and plan to run again.

My big issue is: If you are elected, what would you do to decrease the Anti Social and Criminal behavior in Inchicore?

Alan C16/08/2014Local. you are being unfair to Oisin.
You really should be asking those who were elected what they are doing about local issues where the council have some responsibility.
As far as I can see Oisin, despite not being successful in the last local election is doing more and being more vocal and accessible than any of those elected and we should recognize that.
Also, we are all entitled to our own ideas and opinion, Oisin was only offering an additional option re: the zebra crossing option, there is no harm is considering all options. And you should be aware that Oisin wasvery supportive of consultation with the local community and allowing us to decide.
So he agreed all along to support what the community decide and was offering us a radical option to consider.
What is wrong with that?
Local17/08/2014Alan C, all that is wrong with Oisin's campaign for zebra crossings instead of traffic lights is self evident from this thread. Oisin was a candidate for Dublin City Council and made some posts on this forum in the run up to the election concerning his campaign for a zebra crossing instead of traffic lights. Oisin was putting himself forward for public office. His pre election campaign of putting in zebra crossings instead of traffic lights was pure madness. He's said on this forum that he will run for election again. All candidates must accept criticism where it's warranted, such as on this issue.

Another issue I have is the rise in criminal and anti social activity in Inchicore. Oisin, in a post on this thread, talked about the "anti social atmosphere that some people feel". With the greatest of respect to Oisin, the problem is more than an anti social atmosphere, it's real hard crime.
mick17/08/2014Local, I agree totally with you. While Oisin is a very nice guy I think he needs to live in the real world. I heard him talking about the copper burning and he wanted to use a softly softly approach. People are concerned about their health and wanted the gardai to act. Also in relation to anti social talking will get you nowhere. Thankfully the gardai are finally acting and a few were in custody recently. One female was attacked and her mobile phone taken on Vincent St.
WMT18/08/2014Hi Mick.

Regarding Oisin, you said - "I heard him talking about the copper burning and he wanted to use a softly softly approach"

I was looking at some old videos of the area made in late 1990's early 2000's and the burning was going on then and since then - so one wonders why such an approach after all these years.

Regarding anti-social behaviour and crime - perhaps it would be an idea to open a thread just for that?
Oisin18/08/2014Local
I started this thread as a local resident, who walked down the road one day and found the council putting in traffic lights in what I considered a dangerous place.
I didn't start any campaign, I simply sent a letter to the traffic department expressing my concerns.
My ideas for inchicore were simply to make it a better place for all of us: all the recent evidence shows that zebra crossings are safer for pedestrians especially when you put in a 30 km/h zone. If you have a look at the Governments own design manual for urban streets you will see that zebra crossings are what is recommended for urban streets of this type.
Oisin18/08/2014I'm not sure what your criticism is and what exactly you expect me to do about it. I already acknowledged that the council didn't agree with all of my input, and explained what I still thought wasn't good about the crossing. I'm sorry if my views offend you, but I have looked into what works elsewhere.