CIE Dart Underground Consultation 11/05/2010

AuthorMessage DateMessage
MF11/05/2010So the latest Irish Rail Public Consultation for the dart undrground took place this evening the 11th May 2010.

I was unable to attend. What was it like? What was presented about the inchicore options? What are peoples views?
Anon12/05/2010I thought it was rather interesting. Well done to Inchicore on Track !
Alan C12/05/2010Well done my foot, what they have achieved is to save a small field but sacrifice the integrity of the Village and community. For now anyway.
LH12/05/2010Alan C, it appears that you aren't fully aware of what Inchicore on Track was campaigning for. This has been a major achievement for Inchicore on Track many of us Inchicore residents are very happy with the outcome.
D12/05/2010Very welcome news. Good to hear it.

The new proposal from Irish Rail has:

(a) No intrusive "cut and cover" construction between St Georges Villas and St Patricks Terrace.

(b) No TBM launch pit in the sports field.

(c) No intrusive 24 hour construction in the sports field.

(d) An option to have all the tunnel boring in an east to west direction. Thus no need to tunnel boring from the Inchicore end of the tunnel.

Ciaran12/05/2010I was impressed with the new alternative of doing the construction of the tunnell from inside the CIE Work's. We live in the CIE Estate and I was anxious and reluctant to support the original plan to do all that heavy work in the "pond field" near my house. Now that this new alternative of making the tunnell insite the Work's is on the cards I'm supporting this project. Will be great for the community when the station is made.
Marie P.13/05/2010Good stuff. Well done to everybody in Inchicore on Track. Irish Rail's new preferred alternative brilliant news. Another advantage of the new alternative is that the garden in St. Goerges Villas wont need to be complusorary purchased. I'm looking forward to getting more info about the new plans. I spoke to an CIE chap at the consultation last week and asked him to tell me more about the new Luas station which is now planned for the Works beside the dart station. He said that there will be more information made public soon. It's going to be handy to have the luas station beside the dart station. I heard there is going to be another luas consultation in the next week or two. Does anybody know when and where ?
LH14/05/2010Was told that the next RPA consultation about the Luas station in the Works will he held at Liffey Gael's GAA Club, Sarsfield Road, Inchicore. Not sure of the date.
Colette14/05/2010Bids for Dart underground sought

Fri, May 14, 2010

BIDS TO construct the Dart underground from Dublin’s Docklands to Inchicore have been sought by Iarnród Éireann just one week after the company announced a three-year delay in the project.

The 7.6km underground line, which will link Heuston Station to the Dart line, was due to open in 2015. Iarnród Éireann last week said it did not now expect the project to be completed until 2018.

A spokesman for the company yesterday said the original timeframe had been set in 2007 when the line was due to terminate at Heuston Station. The subsequent decision to extend it to Inchicore meant there would be 40 per cent more tunnelling than had been proposed.

Iarnród Éireann was not delaying the project and was now formally starting the procurement process by seeking tenders to design and build the line, he said.

The company intends to submit an application for a railway order, planning permission for the project, to An Bord Pleanála next month.

The tender documents, which will be published in the EU official journal in the coming days, seek submissions from interested parties by July 20th.

The successful candidate will be required to undertake tunnelling, track-laying, signalling, station construction, car-park construction and other mechanical and electrical works associated with the project.

© 2010 The Irish Times
Nuala and Frank17/05/2010We want to add our support to this - now that the plan has changed so that the tunnel will be dug outside the residential estate. Linking the dart station and the luas station is quite a clever idea! The trip from inchicore to stephen's green will take 7 minutes on the dart. We think this will be brilliant for us.
Alan C17/05/2010I'm sure all of the residents of the CIE estate are happy about this, but I'm not sure that Inchicore is.
Anyway Nuala and Frank I wouldn't get too excited, we'll probably all be in retirment homes by the time you can get a DART from Inchicore.
John Farrelly17/05/2010Im glas for the residents of the CIE estate that there will be less disruption for them but as an Inchicore Road resident im disappointed, the station is so far away that its not really a benefit to Inchicore Road residents or any area south of the Village.
Nuala and Frank17/05/2010Will be very convenient for us in Tyconnel Park. If you are on Inchicore Road you could get to the stations via the wicket gate through inchciore terrace north. We think it will be great for all of Inchicore. It will take you into Stephen's Green in 7 minutes so we think a lot of people in Inchicore will get great benefit out of it. It will be handy for us to get the Luas from the new inchicore station out to Liffey Valley too. It's going to be for future generations too - you need to take the long term view Alan. It's going to be finished in 2018.
IC17/05/2010Any idea where I can see a map showing where the proposed station will be now?
Jo17/05/2010The revised plans have not been posted on the Irish Rail website yet - best thing is to keep checking. The station location hasn't changed much from the original plan.
Martin18/05/2010That's good. I was worried that it might get moved a bit further west. In it's present location it will also be very accessible for the residents of inchicore who live around the ranch part of sarsfield road. Will be just 5 mins walk over the footbridge for them.
Judi18/05/2010Martin, is the Ranch not in Ballyfermot?
Martin18/05/2010No The Ranch is definitely inchicore. Houses in the ranch were built in 1890s for workers of the Inchicore Works. Also the the apartments on sarsfield road in the seven oaks and floraville complexes are also inchicore. A large portion of sarsfield road is inchicore.
Judi18/05/2010That's odd Martin, Dublin City Council dont seem to think so, and the electoral area is not Inchicore, nor the postal code and the Inchicore Framework plan doesnt include the Ranch either.
I'm not so sure, maybe it was in Inchicore but its not now.
Mary Mc18/05/2010There was always confusion regarding where the Ranch actually is, everyone says its in Inchicore, but it really is in Ballyfermot. According to the postal code Woodfield is the start of Dublin 10 so therefore the Ranch, Liffey Gaels and Seven Oaks has to be in Ballyfermot.
dot18/05/2010Is there a website showing the latest proposed plan or a map showing proposed station location and access?


Alan C18/05/2010Hi dot, the answer is no.
Irish Rail have not yet bothered to update their webpage with the new preferred option for Inchicore Works.
The actual station location is identical to the original proposal but many other details have changed.
Welcome to the world of Irish Rail public consultation.
Chris.18/05/2010I would love to say that the residents of Inchicore are lucky to be getting a combined DART and Luas station. But the Luas proposal seems to have been tacked on at the last minute. Does anyone know when more details of that plan will become available.
Martin18/05/2010The Ranch and that part of sarsfield road always was in Inchicore. It's postal code was D8 and it changed to D10 some years ago. But that doesn't mean it's nolonger in Inchicore.

Half of inchicore is in the Ballyfermot-Drimnagh electoral area and the other half of inchicore is in the South West Inner City electoral area. So electoral areas don't clarify the question. The Ranch is in the Kilmainham-A electoral ward.

The Ranch is in The Parish of Mary Imaculate in Inchicore.

The same goes for the floraville and seven oaks apartments on sarsfield road
Judi19/05/2010Martin that makes no sense at all, you should just admit that you're living in Ballyfermot and get over it.
LH19/05/2010Crikey Judi, give the lad a break. You're the one who muddied the issue by saying that The Ranch cannot be in Inchicore because isn't in the Inchicore Electoral Area or in the Dublin 8 postal code.

Allow me to assist both you and Martin.

Here is a Map of the Local Electoral Areas for Dublin City:

If you look at the map you will see that:

-The Inchicore Works/Tyrconnel Road/Tryconnel Park/Jamestown Road portion of Inchicore is in the "Inchicore A" division of the Ballyfermot-Drimnagh Local Electoral Area.

-The Ranch/Floraville/Seven Oaks portion of Inchicore is in the "Kilmainham A" division of the Ballyfermot-Drimnagh Local Electoral Area.

-The Emmet Road/Bulfin Estate portion of Inchicore is in the "Kilmainham C" division of the South West Inner City Local Electoral Area.

-The CIE Estate/Inchicore Road portion of Inchicore is in the "Kilmainham B" division of the South West Inner City Local Electoral Area.

Here are just two examples of where your thesis is erroneous:

-Nobody would say that because Inchicore Works/Tyrconnel Road/Tryconnel Park/Jamestown Road are in the Ballyfermot-Drimnagh Local Electoral Area that this means they are part of the community of Ballyfermott.

-Nobody would say that because The Ranch/Floraville/Seven Oaks portion of Inchicore is in the "Kilmainham A" division that it's part of the community of Kilmainham.

Now going back to the point about the post codes...

Inchicore is contained in Dublin 8, 10 and 12. For example, the address of the Inchicore Model School is "Sarsfield Road, Inchicore, Dublin 10". Nobody would say that it's in Ballyfermot.

Several communities in the city spread over two or more post codes.
Ciaran19/05/2010Hi Chris, i got a letter telling me that the next consultation about the new Luas Station is May 25th in Liffey Gaels GAA club.
Judi19/05/2010LH that is the strangest thing, it's very bizzare that part of Inchicore is in a Ballyfermot/Drimnagh electoral area and the rest in South West Inner City.
I wonder do the councillers that supported the CIE works residents know that they can't vote for them?
I expect the South West Inner City councellors were more interested in the issues that affect Inchicore.
Perhaps this is something important to debate, perhaps this democratic/representative annomoly is partly to blame for the dereliction and social problems of Inchiore. Perhaps we might have a litter warden or parking inspector and a better Village if the community was all represented by the same local councellors.
Sorry for hijacking this thread, perhaps a new one can be opened on this?
LH19/05/2010Judi, I've opened an new thread "The Local Electoral Areas in Inchicore"

You said, in the context of local electoral areas, that you are going to ask Irish Rail to call the station in the Inchicore Railway Works the "Ballyfermot station". Quite frankly Alan, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Nobody could say that "Inchicore A" local area electoral division is part of the community of Ballyfermot. The "Inchicore A" electoral division comprises of the CIE Railway Works/Tyrconnel Road/Tyrconnel Park/Ring Street//Railway Avenue/Jamestown Road etc. This historically is the heart of Inchicore. These parts of Inchicore and the proposed dart and luas stations are 100% in Inchicore - that's a fact. There is no two ways about it.
Alan C19/05/2010I did ask them to call it Inchicore Works so as not to confuse commuters. The same reason Ryanair have to call their Paris airport Paris-Beauvais. If Ryanair did urban rail transport they would probably put a stop in the derelict Inchicore Works site, if Carlsberg were doing it it would be in the Village center.
Ans as it now turns out that the works site is technically in Ballyfermot why not call it that?
Alan C19/05/2010We are all entitled to our own views on this, and some will not make sense, that why we have local representatives to listen to all views and make a concensus. Problem here is that the local representatives for some of Inchicore are the Ballyfermot Councellors. The community really needs to have people representing the whole community to achieve a representative consensus.

The CIE Inchicore Works site is not technically in Ballyfermot. There's nothing technical about it. The CIE Inchicore Works site in Inchicore. You really are not making any sense.

The "Inchicore A" electoral division of the Ballyfermot-Drimnagh electoral area comprises of the CIE Railway Works/Tyrconnel Road/Tyrconnel Park/Ring Street//Railway Avenue/Jamestown Road/The Oblates Church, etc.

It's absurd to say that the CIE Inchicore Works is "tecnhically in Ballyfermot" beacuse of the local electoral areas.

To accept such an absurd proposition would also mean for example that Tyrconnel Road, the main tree lined street through Inchicore, is "technically in Ballyfermot"! To accept that would be nonsense. Tyrconnel Road is in Inchicore.

Ciaran19/05/2010Right so. I'm glad that issue has been cleared up. Right, so the CIE Inchicore Works is in Inchicore. Well that's a no-brainer. Can we move on now?

I'm looking forward to the RPA consultation about the new proposed Inchicore Luas Station next tuesday the 25th May in the Liffey Gaels GAA Club.

I have heard that Irish Rail and the RPA were in discissions about the proposed Inchicore Luas Station for the past few months.

The proposal for the new Inchicore Luas Station was only made public a few weeks ago.

It's clear that it's a good plan to put the proposed new Inchicore Luas Station beside the new Inchicore Dart Station.

Hopefully the RPA give more details next tuesday.
Alan C19/05/2010Ciaran the RPA already had a consultation on this 27th April in Liffey Gaels, basically there was a bunch of residents from Ballyfermot giving out about the tracks going through the village there disrupting their lives somehow. The actual details of the proposal are very simple, its a tiny change to the Lucan Luas line (which will probably never be built anyway)
The details of the Luas change are here
Ciaran19/05/2010Thanks Alan. I looked at the link. Why are there two options for the location of the Luas Station ? Both options are close to the Dart station. But one is closer than the other.
Jo19/05/2010I got a letter from the RPA today saying there is a presentation on the Lucan Luas on 25th May at Liffey Gaels - 7pm. Must be true.
Jo19/05/2010Ciaran - the two options on the LUAS station in the works - I was told that the one closest to the proposed DART station was the RPA's preferred position, and the one further away was Irish Rail's preferred position. We were all asked to let them know which position of station we preferred....
Ciaran20/05/2010Had a closer look at big map on the RPA webpage.

It looks as if Option A situates the Luas Station about 10 yards from the Dart Station and Option B puts the Luas Station about 60 yards from the Dart Station. I reckon most punters would have picked Option A at the consultation.

Alan C20/05/2010Its a pointless silly exercise to make it seem like a proper consultation has been done. What if (and many do) people want a different route altogether? There is actually a lot of objection to the Luas route and very little support for a 50min winding commute to the city from Lucan when the bus takes 25min.
This Luas line will never be built its already been shelved, has no funding and no planning permission and no deadline to get it started.
Ciaran20/05/2010Well I remeber extensive consultation for the Lucan Luas Route over the past few years. One of the options on the table a few years ago was to have the Luas line come down past the Black Lion pub in Inchicore and into town through Emmet Road. But there were huge objections from businesses and
residents of Inchicore on Tryrconnel Road and Emmet Road and Old Kilmainham who didn't want the distruption during construction and
didn't want a Luas line running in front of their properties.

As a result of all the objections the current proposed Route was chosen after extensive consultation.

I think we need to move on now.

What's now on the table is a proposal to route the line so that a Luas Station can be made beside the Dart Station.

This is brilliant - it will be like putting the Lucan Luas Line on steroids.

Commuters going to Town from Lucan and Ballyfermott will get off the Luas at the Inchicore Works and hop on the
high speed Dart Underground which will take them to the city center in 5 minutes.
Alan C20/05/2010You've got to be joking Ciaran, its not 5 mins from the Inchicore Works Station to St Stephens Green on the proposed DART its going to be closer to 15 mins. And after already spending over 20 mins on a tram having to change for DART wait for it, will still take 45 mins or so from Lucan to St Stephens green, the bus takes 25 mins.
Unless the LUAS is a direct route and under 30 mins the people of Lucan will not use it. IT will never be built as it's currently designed as the benefits are not there. The DART will integrate with LUAS at Heuston anyway as well as at Stephens green.
DART is meant to be 10 mins from Heuston to Stephens Green, but the alterd preferred tunnel entrance in Inchicore Works means the track gradient will change and the speed limit along this portion of track will be slower as a result, the distance between Heuston and Inchicore Works is also the longest (40% of the tunnel is between Heuston and Inchicore Works) so 15 mins is a reasonable expectation.
Ciaran20/05/2010Alan, your Dart Underground journey times are just your own speculation. At least we won’t have to wait too much longer to find out the real journey times – the Railway Order is being published next month.

Whether it takes 5 minutes or 10 minutes to get from Inchicore to Christchurch on the Dart Underground, the benefits to the Luas Lucan Line are the same. You are massively underestimating the advantages of the interchange in the CIE Works between the Luas Lucan Line and the Dart Underground Line. The Dart Underground doesn’t just stop at Stephen’s Green. The Dart Underground connects seamlessly with the entire Dart Network. The Lucan Luas Line (F1) will be a feeder line into Dart Underground Network with the connection point at the Inchicore Dart Station.

By the way, the Luas Lucan Line does not connect with Heuston.
Alan C20/05/2010Ciaran the problem is that people in Lucan have no interest in travelling to Inchicore to get a train, when they can go up the road to Leixlip and get one there if the need to. Inchicore is too far away.
It will not be any quicker for them to get to the city center, this is not appealing for anyone in Lucan.
And the Lucan LUAS line as proposed DOES connect with Heuston (and Connolly) via the red line, if built trams will run Lucan to the Point and Lucan to Trinity, and Tallaght/Saggart to Trinity and aome to the Point. Thats the line that is proposed and that the service it would provide.

In response to the DART times, I did explain my thoughts on the approx 15 min journey time (Inchicore to Stephens Green), u just made up your timings which are way off.
I accept that it could well end up being a 10 min journey or thereabouts but I think its reasonable to expect it to be about 15 mins based on what we know already.
Have u been on the DART? Noticed the lack of efficiency? A lot of existing DART commuters are extremely unhappy with the service there a several lobbie groups and campaigns against Irish Rail.
I dont think the benefits you are hoping for exist and I dont think the Lucan LUAS line will ever be built, its already been shelved.
Alan C20/05/2010Meant to say that there is a new train station at Adamstown which is the natural choice to serve Lucan (and already is)
It's just nonsense to try move people on a slow LUAS to Inchicore to change onto train when they have train stations on their doorstep.
Judi20/05/2010I just got the invite to the LUAS presentation, but my invite from the RPA says it's in
Liffey Gael's GAA Club, Ballyfermot.

Is this the same Liffey Gael's club that LH and Martin think is in Inchicore? I hope you guys dont end up in the wrong place.
Ciaran20/05/2010Alan, So you are saying some trams on the Luas F line will go through Heuston.
The big advantage of the Inchicore interchange is that ALL trams on the LUAS F line will interchange with the
DART at Inchicore.

You are ignoring the fact that the Luas F1 line doesn't only serve Lucan. The Luas F1 Line also has many stations at places which are not served by neither the Lucan Express Bus nor the Adamstown Train Station. Thus commuters from all these additional locations can be fed into the Dart network via the Inchicore interchange.
Alan C20/05/2010The people in Ballyfermot dont want this Luas line either, you'll see that if you go to the presentation next week which was actually setup specifically for the ammount of objection in Ballyfermot, the bus will still be quicker for them to get to town or Liffey Valley.

A LUAS line costs about a 700 Million euro, a shuttle bus would be the most appropriate way of getting people to their NEAREST rail station if you want to agrue that, the shuttle can also be demand led and extended as required.
And if the Interconnector is build it will open up the new stops to all areas around rail stations.
There is no need and no benefit to the rail commuters in having the LUAS stop in Inchicore Works.

I think the benefits you see to the LUAS and DART in Inchicore Works are really only shared by people living beside i
LH20/05/2010Lads, did you hear that the Lucan 25X is being axed. Discussion about it here on (

Some of the Lucan commuters think it will now take then 60 minutes to get to town on the bus.

LH20/05/2010Liffey Gaels is part of Inchicore. Here's just one example proving it:

Look at:

Go to the GAA section, where it states
"Liffey Gaels is Inchicore's local GAA club. The Gaels field teams of all ages in Football, Hurling and Camógie. They are located on Sarsfield Road"
LH20/05/2010Here's another example proving that Liffey Gael's is in Inchicore. Liffey Gael's has it's own Bebo Page:
which states:
"Well basicly I'm a big house on Sarsfield rd inchicore with a big back garden where i often let people play gaelic games and afterwards they can come into my clubhouse for tea or maybe a couple of pints or play in my games room. we have a lot of fun with games being run in the bar during the week and music and functions at the weekends."

Lads, I think you'll have to accept it. Liffey Gaels is in Inchicore and the part of Inchicore which Liffey Gaels is in will get huge benefit from theInchicore Dart Underground Station.
Ciaran20/05/2010Right so you've now proved that Liffey Gaels is in Inchicore. I mean we all know that. Lets move on. Lets keep it to the topic of the Dart and the Luas.
Alan C 20/05/2010The LUAS presentation in Liffey Gael's is the Ballyfermot open day, I hope they dont mind having to come all the way to Inchicore for that, the Inchicore Open day was in the Oblate Hall.
There will be a lot of opposition at it, so it wud be no harm for people to go to support it if you think its a good idea, to balance out the objections.
Its a pity the objections from Inchicore Village weren't balanced out by the locals.
Martin20/05/2010There's not going to be a consultation in the oblates this time. The consultation next week in Liffey Gaels on sarsfield road is for the residents of inchicore and ballyfermot.
D21/05/2010I was at the LUAS public consultation in Liffey Gael's last month.

Here's the background:
As we all know, after extesive public consultation by the RPA over the last several years the route of the LUAS F1 (Newcastle Road to Blackhorse) line was selected in 2008. Part of this route would run along a section of Kylemore Road.

Here's what happened at the public consultation last month in Liffey Gael's:
The consultation was only to be about the LUAS station beside the DART station and the alteration to the Route to facilitate this. But the residents of Kylemore Road hijacked the meeting and complained that they didn't want a LUAS line running outside their houses on Kylemore Road. Instead the Kylemore Road gang wanted the LUAS line to run along Sarsfield Road. The RPA reps at the meeting were valiantly trying to explain to the Kylemore Road residents that the route along Kylemore Road was chosen after several years of extensive puclic consultation and that the evening's meeting was planned only to be about the LUAS station beside the DART station and the alteration to the Route to facilitate this.

In order to help the Kylemore Road residents understand why the line has been selected to run along Kylemore Road RPA told the residents of Kylemore Road that they will explain it in detail at a meeting next tuesday, the 21st May in Liffey Gael's.
Martin21/05/2010Don't forget it's a combined inchicore and ballyfermot meeting next Tuesday in Liffey Gaels GAA club, sarsfield road, inchicore.
Alan C21/05/2010Martin you state a lot of nonsense, the purpose of the RPA consultation next week is to address the concerns of the residents of Ballyfermot, they have already consulted with the Inchicore residents. That's not to say that everyone is not welcome, of course everyone should attend, especially those that support the plans.
But you do state a lot of falsehoods. Inchicore residents suppor the minor change it's fair to say.
Martin21/05/2010Alan, I live in inchicore in the cie estate and I was recieved a letter inviting me to the meeting in Liffey Gaels. The meeting in clearly for inchicore and ballyfermot. You are not making sense again. The other day you were saying that the CIE Works and by implication the Oblates Hall are technically in Balleyfermot due to the local election boundaries. It's you Alan that is talking nonsense.
Alan C21/05/2010Martin the RPA already heard from the residents of Inchicore and I'm sure they are happy that the prople of inchicore would like to see the station they are proposing.
Next weeks invite is titled "Luas Lucan - Ballyfermot Open Day - 25 May 2010"
They also state it's location as Liffey Gael's, Ballyfermot Lower.
This is fact, what you are stating is opinion offered as fact, this is a falsehood.
I do think it would be good for supporters of the LUAS plan to attend and balance out the considerable objection from the residents of Ballyfermot.

And on the electoral boundries I didnt make up stuff and present it as fact, I was meery commenting on the curious nature of the electoral boundries and strange interpretations it cud lead to, e.g. the RPA calling Liffey Gael's Ballyfermot!
Judi21/05/2010I have heard that the objections from Ballyfermot are being supported by a local county councellor, presumably one that also represents some of Inchicore.
Someone find out at the meeting if it's true so we can all contact them and express our own opinions on how they should be representing us.
LH21/05/2010Yep. I head that too Judi. I was told that it was the local Labour Party city councillor Michael Conaghan who was supporting the objections of the Kylemore Road residents.

I was relaibly informed that Michael said to people at the last public consultation that he wanted the luas line to come down sarsfield road and go over existing railway bridge near Liffey Gaels then in through the CIE Estate by the pond field so as to like up with the Dart Station in the CIE works. It's a most hairbrained suggestion from a man whbo should know better. Bizzare even.

I'm sure he will be out again at next weeks meeting. I would like us Inchicore people to tackle him and get him to support the Inchicore Dart Station and the sensible route proposed by the RPA- afterall he represents half of us in Inchicore.
Alan C 21/05/2010Are any of the Inchicore Councilors going to be there? We could do with a representative like Michael Conaghan to make sure the residents of Inchicore don't loose out and if they do look at the Luas route again that we get the best from it.
I just know of one councilor in Inchicore and although I have tried to raise issues with them through email and written letters I have never had any response.

We need stronger representation from Inchicore in general
Judi21/05/2010Sure why would the Councellors in Inchicore care about the people in the CIE estate when they can't vote for them.

The Inchicore On Trackers did such an excellent job that I though it would be a great opportunity for one of them to run as a local representative, but would I be right in saying that as it stands they would have to run in Ballyfermot? (Obviously nobody there would vote for them, and they have great councilors there already anyway)
No wonder Inchicore get left behind.
D21/05/2010No Judi, the CIE Residential Estate is represented by the Councillors of the South West Inner City Local Electoral Area. These are Cllr Clare Byrne (Fine Gael), Cllr John Gallagher (Labour), Cllr Rebecca Moynihan (Labour) and Cllr Criona Ni Dhalaigh (Sinn Fein).

D22/05/2010Alan, you were saying that we could do with a representative like Michael Conaghan to make sure the residents of Inchicore don't loose out.

The ironic thing is that Michael Conaghan actually is the representative for half of Inchicore !!!

Michael Conaghan represents The CIE Engineering Works (but not the CIE Residential Estate), Tyrconnel Park, Tyrconnell Road (both sides of the road), part of Grattan Crescent, all property between the Camac River and Tyrconnell Road, Railway Avenue, Ring Street, Nash Street, the Mary Immaculate Church and the grounds of the Oblates Fathers, O'Donoghue Street, Jamestown Avenue, Jamestown Court and Jamestown Road.

Half of Inchicore basically is represented by Michael Conaghan. Lets get him working for us !!!
Alan C 22/05/2010Thanks D, that's such a bizzare situation.
Michael was voted in by the people of Ballyfermot and is always going to put them first, if he does otherwise he looses his job. Thats politics.
Its just not right that all of Inchicore is not represented by the same people in the way Ballyfermot and other places are.

Does anyone else thinks this makes local issues poorly represented and as a result Inchicore is getting a smaller piece of the pie?

As for the LUAS, just by getting the RPA to hold an extra consultation to hear the views of the people from Ballyfermot is a major achievement and is very significant. Those views can not be ignored now.
It seems like nobody is there fighting for Inchicore in the same way.
Any idea who is responsable for setting the local electoral areas?
Ciaran25/05/2010Thanks D and Alan. What do people on this forum wish to get done in the engineering Works when the stations are built? There's a lot of good things that could be done in there.
John Farrelly25/05/2010As a resident of Inchicore Road (which apparantly is not in Inchicore as we never got any notice about the Luas consultation) I took a walk down through the CIE Estate via the Sarsfield Road pedestrian entrance to see how far it was to this proposed DART station, I reckon it took me 10 minutes to get to the Engineering Works gate but im not sure how much further than that it is to the station, I think if the station is built lighting in the CIE Estate would need to be upgraded, its a nice place but I dont think many people would like to walk alone through it late at night especially if you are using the Sarsfield road entrance, I do think that rather than bringing the Luas in to meet the DART their could be a DART station (underground) in the Village or in the area outside the CIE estate beside the Model Schools( where the Recycling Centre is now) and then a further station at the junction of Kylemore Road, this way you would not have to move the Luas and Ballyfermot residents would have access to the DART which would be useful. I would agree with any Ballyfermot resident that the Luas is not a huge benefit to them the 79A would still be quicker.
D25/05/2010Hi John, As businesses and residents in Inchicore objected vehemently twice over the last 10 years to two seperate proposals to route a Luas line through the center of the village I suspect that there will be the same strong objections by them to any plan to build an underground dart station in the village.

But what would you like done in the CIE Engineering Works after the stations are built in Works? It's been suggested locally to develop a railway transport heritage museum. What are your views on that ? The key in my view is to develop a sustainable environment in the Engineering Works.
MF04/06/2010Say you want to go from inchicore to blackrock. Here's the way to do it. Dart from inchicore to pearse will take 9 minutes. Wait approx 5 minutes in pearse for a southbound dart. Dart from pearse to blackrock takes 13 minutes.

Total journey time is 27 minutes.

Much faster that the 50 minutes it would be to take the luas from inchicore to Connolly and then the dart from Connolly to blackrock.
Mary07/06/2010A railway heritage museum would be fit in well in the CIE works.

Would be nice to have something else done in there in addition to just a museum.

I am very excited about the proposed Dart station and Luas station. This will be a great asset for the area.

It seems like an obvious choice to put the Luas line into the cie works so that it can link with the Dart Station.

In my opinion the LUas station should be as close as possible to the Dart station so that people can transfer easily.
Peter McDonagh10/06/2010I agree with you Mary about the Luas station. As has been pointed out it will only be a 30 minute trip from Lucan to St. Stephen's Green using a combination of Luas to (from Lucan to Inchicore) and Dart (from Inchicore to St. Stephen's Green). However, using the "express" bus for the entire trip from Lucan to St. Stephen's Green will take 50 to 55 Minutes at peak times using according to Dublin Bus.

People will get used to changing onto the Dart at the Inchicore Dart station.

I too would like a Railway Museum and lots of nice stuff in the CIE Works. How about some sports facilities, a creche and some employment opportunities. Another good reason for putting the Luas Station in the CIE Works is that
all this good stuff would be more accessible.
Alan C10/06/2010Peter that's simply not the case.
It will take over 40 mins at peak time to get from Lucan to city center on Luas + DART as I showed above and even longer off-peak, c50 mins or so.
Even the RPA suggest 45 mins from Lucan to Abbey Street, and since it takes 20 from Blackhorse, it has to take 25 from Lucan to blackhorse. The other figures of 30 mins are made up and based on simply pick them out of the air.

The express bus takes 25 mins, I would not be surprised if the Dublin Bus website is wrong, but thats the peak time journey on the bus from Lucan to City center.
Also Dublin Bus are rolling out network changes and the Lucan 25x route (and other routes) are being made shorter by using the QBC.

Being realistic, it's far far more likely you'll find a prison/detention center, or psychiatric hospital on the works site than any museum, dont be getting ur hopes up too much.
Alan C10/06/2010The RPA official time from Lucan to Abbey Street is 44 mins as it stands, they want to add on the inchicore stop and re route around some street in Lucan, which will add to this and bring it closer to 50 mins.
it takes approx 20 mins from Blackhorse to Abbey street, which would make the Lucan to blackhorse time about 25 mins.
Lucan to Inchicore work on Luas = approx 25 mins. add on 5 mins or so to wait on the dart, and 10 mins dart journey to city center = 40-45 mins (depending on wait)
That's not as attractive as it involves changing and adding uncertainty to how long your journey will take. A shuttle bus to Adamstown, or luas to adamstown from Lucan is the only way people would use luas+dart from there.
Nobody from Lucan will want to travel to inchicore to get the dart.
Peter McDonagh11/06/2010Hi fellow Inchicore people,

Alan you are so wrong it's hilarious.

RPA official time from Lucan Terminus to Abbey St is 44 Minutes (going via Kylemore Road and Canal but not CIE Works)

RPA official time from Heuston to Connolly is 14 Minutes.
Estimated time from Abbey St to Connolly is 3 Minutes.
Therefore, Heuston to Abbey Street is 11 Minutes

RPA official time from Suir Road to Heuston is 9 Minutes.
Estimated time from Kylemore Park to Suir Road is 5 Minutes (going via Kylemore Road and Canal but not CIE Works)
Therfore, Kylemore Park to Heuston is 14 Minutes.

Therefore, Lucan Terminus to Kylemore Park:
44 minus 11 minus 14 = 19 Minutes.

Estimated time on NEW ROUTE from Kylemore Park to CIE Works is 2 Minutes

Therefore, Lucan Terminus to CIE Works is 21 Minutes.

Remember, 21 Minutes is the time from the Newcastle Road Terminus to the CIE Works.

It will be alot shorter Luas trip to the CIE Works from those Massive Lucan Housing Estates near the Luas stations at Castle Road, Droim na Cloille and Ballyowen Park.

Those places are too far from the DART stations at Adamstown and Clondalkin. It would be a waste of time to try and get from those Hosing Estates to the DART stations at Adamstown and Clondalkin.

CIE Works to St Stehpen's Green on the DART is 7 Minutes.

Therfore Lucan to St Stephen's Green on the using the Luas with the Dart will be 25 to 33 Minutes depending on where in Lucan you live.

The Lucan Bus Routes are being reorganised by CIE. Accoriding to CIE's own figures released as part of the public consultation the Bus will take 50 minutes at peak and 45 minutes off peak to get from Lucan to St. Stephen's Green

Thus Luas from Lucan to Inchicore and Dart from Inchicore to St. Stephen's Green will be very attractive compared with the alternative modes of transport.

Clearly Alan you have a bias against putting the Dart Station in the CIE Works. Would you like to explain why?

There's lots of good development that could take place in the CIE Works when it has the Dart and Luas Stations. The plans for a Railway Museum are taking shape. What are you afraid of ?
Nuala15/06/2010Well said Peter. It's a "no-brainer".
Alan C15/06/2010Well said my ass, those timings are way off. If you lived in Lucan you would not see this as a good plan at all and they dont. The people in Lucan deserve their own Dart station in Lucan, just as we do. You're fooling yourselves thinking that we could share one (as long as it's in Inchicore of course).
Peter McDonagh15/06/2010RPA official time from Lucan Terminus to Abbey St is 44 Minutes (going via Kylemore Road and Canal but not CIE Works)

RPA official time from Heuston to Connolly is 14 Minutes.
Estimated time from Abbey St to Connolly is 3 Minutes.
Therefore, Heuston to Abbey Street is 11 Minutes

RPA official time from Suir Road to Heuston is 9 Minutes.
Estimated time from Kylemore Park to Suir Road is 5 Minutes (going via Kylemore Road and Canal but not CIE Works)
Therfore, Kylemore Park to Heuston is 14 Minutes.

Therefore, Lucan Terminus to Kylemore Park:
44 minus 11 minus 14 = 19 Minutes.

Estimated time on NEW ROUTE from Kylemore Park to CIE Works is 2 Minutes

Therefore, Lucan Terminus to CIE Works is 21 Minutes.

Remember, 21 Minutes is the time from the Newcastle Road Terminus to the CIE Works.

It will be alot shorter Luas trip to the CIE Works from those Massive Lucan Housing Estates near the Luas stations at Castle Road, Droim na Cloille and Ballyowen Park.

Those places are too far from the DART stations at Adamstown and Clondalkin. It would be a waste of time to try and get from those Hosing Estates to the DART stations at Adamstown and Clondalkin.

CIE Works to St Stehpen's Green on the DART is 7 Minutes.

Therfore Lucan to St Stephen's Green on the using the Luas with the Dart will be 25 to 33 Minutes depending on where in Lucan you live.

The Lucan Bus Routes are being reorganised by CIE. Accoriding to CIE's own figures released as part of the public consultation the Bus will take 50 minutes at peak and 45 minutes off peak to get from Lucan to St. Stephen's Green

Thus Luas from Lucan to Inchicore and Dart from Inchicore to St. Stephen's Green will be very attractive compared with the alternative modes of transport.

Clearly Alan you have a bias against putting the Dart Station in the CIE Works. Would you like to explain why?

What timings do you disagree with Alan ?

The "Lucan Luas" also serves Clondalkin, Ballyfermot and Inchicore.

There's lots of good development that could take place in the CIE Works when it has the Dart and Luas Stations. The plans for a Railway Museum are taking shape. What are you afraid of ?
Alan C16/06/2010Because Peter, the purpose of a DART station in Inchicore sould be to serve the community living in the Inchicore Area, not to server the people of Lucan!

The proposed location in the Works fails to serve the community in Inchicore and to try make up for this failure you are proposing it as some kind of hub to get people from Lucan to the city! This is a farce, the people of Lucan have no interest in this nonsense, they deserve their own DART station, and will probably get one before Inchicore does.

You are NOT looking at this in terms of providing good public transport to Inchicore, this proposal does not achieve that by a long shot.
Neither the Lucan Luas or the DART underground will deliever good public transport to Inchicore so why on earth should we support them?

Well obviously you are attracted to the idea of having a transport hub, railway museum and vibrant new quarter developed in the Railway Works. But unfortunitely this isn't going to provide good transport to Inchicore.

I think it's very short-sighted to support this project on the basis of assumed benefits to people in Lucan or the side projects being mentioned, all of those things will come anyway. You are totally missing the whole point of public transport here, which is to facilitate the movement of people to and from where the need to go. You're idea is more like the Shannon Stop-Over.

If you want good public transport in Inchiore you need to look at where pwople live, and map out catchment areas, existing transport etc and you would come up with a good solution.
This one from CIE was selected to increase their land value and not for any other reason.
Peter McDonagh16/06/2010Nonsense Alan. The new Inchicore Dart and Luas Stations are VERY CLOSE to THOUSANDS of homes in INCHICORE, for example: Sarsfield Road, Meadowview, Seven Oaks, Floraville, Woodfield, Tyrconnel Park, Ring Street, Railway Avenue, Partidge Terrace, New Road, Jamestown Road, Jamestown Avenue, Oblate Drive, Nash Street, Ring Terrace, Abercorn Terrace, St. Patricks Terrace, St. George's Villas, Wheaton Court, Granite Terrace, Abercorn Square, Inchiocre Terrace North, Inchiocre Terrace South, Inchiocre Square, Grattan Court.

The new Luas Route will be VERY CONVENIENT for hundreds of people in INCHICORE living in: Connolly Avenue, St. Michael's Estate, Connolly Gardens, Southern Cross Avenue, Anner Road, Kickham Road, Stephen's Road, Bulfin Road, O'Leary Road, Devoy Road.

The new Dart and Luas Stations will be VERY CONVENIENT for many people in Inchicore. Where in Inhcicore do you live ? What is your problem with it ?

Look where the new luas route will run: along the canal - thus it will be very convenient for hundreds of houses in the Bulfin Estate, it will be convenient for THOUSANDS of people in Drimnagh, it will encourage the redevelopment of St. Michael's estate.

You will also find that people living in Drimnagh will, for example, get on the Luas at Goldenbridge and Drimnagh and then travel west to link up with the Inchicore Dart Station.
Peter McDonagh17/06/2010Do you have anything to say in reply Alan ? As I stated above, the new Inchicore Dart and Luas routes will be very convenient for THOUSANDS of people in INCHICORE. What is your problem ?
Alan C17/06/2010Peter I've already said that the problem with the DART / Luas plans are that they are not the best solution for the transport needs of the Inchicore community, it really is that simple.
When it's costing Billions of Euro we should expect more.
The IOT commisioned report stated that the location of the Station was bizzare, i.e. Irish Rail chose it NOT as its the best place to put it for commuters, but because it serves Irish Rail by adding value to their land.

I envy other European Cities that have World-class public transport. They didnt get it by making decisions like that. There is a methodology for planning transport which is used the world over, you study where people live, where they commute and map the catchment areas, as well as lots of other stuff, and with this knowledge you can plan state-of-the art public transport.
OR you could do it the Irish way and just pick a spot that enriches the people who picked it even though its not the best location.

How can you possable think that the current plan is the best possable?
The reasoning behind it is totally illogical!
It is not the best valu for money solution and it's not the best transport solution.
Peter McDonagh17/06/2010Cop on Alan. As I've outlined already, the new Dart and Luas Routes through Inchicore will be very convenient for THOUSANDS of people in Inchicore.

What commissioned Report about the station are you referring to Alan ? You are full of baloney Alan and are you making things up as you go along.
Alan C17/06/2010Peter there is no need to be rude, you asked me for my opinion and I obliged, the least you can do is politely disagree.
Judi17/06/2010No need to be rude Peter! You did ask for Alan's opinion after all.
Peter McDonagh17/06/2010Alan, where is this report comissioned by IOT that you are referring to ? I think that you have invented the contents of such a report. Are you making things up Alan ?

On the contrary, IOT commissioned a report that recommended the relocating the tunnel works into the CIE Estate. This commissioned report DID NOT say that the location of the Dart Station was bizzare. The report has been published on their website.

I think that you are making things up Alan. Can you expalin where is this report that YOU are referring to ?
Daithi17/06/2010surely the point of public tansport is to serve all the community. this is why there is a number of options (luas, bus, dart) spread across the whole area. consideration should also be given to other areas such as drimnagh (luas) and ballyfermot (dart). the bus service that runs through emmet road is excellent, as you never have to wait more than 10 mins to get a bus. my concern is that they they intend to scrap the 19 bus route which services inchicore/ kilmainham to synge st school and the harcourt st business district.
Peter McDonagh18/06/2010Yes Dathai, I agree that we in Inchicore should also support public transport improvements in places like Drimnagh. The Luas F (Lucan Line) is planned to go along the canal between Blackhorse and Suir Road and also link up with the Inchicore Dart Station. The stops at Blackhorse, Drimnagh, Goldengridge, and Suir Road will be served by this new Luas F (Lucan Line) and so will be convenient for the people of Drimnagh and Inchicore. The Railway Procurement Agency have an excellent map which shows contours of the walking times from the canal Luas stops to places in Drimnagh. Their map shows a 5, 10 and 15 minute contour. You can see from the map that most of Drimnagh and Inchicore is within easy walking distance of one of the canal Luas stops. The roads in Drimnagh itself are too narrow for a Luas line however - I'm not sure if you were suggesting putting a Luas line through the roads in Drimnagh - perhaps you could clarify.
judi18/06/2010Peter, that is a bit rich to be honest. You are only supporting yourself to be honest.
The people in Lucan want the Luas to go to Adamastown, and their local TD's have asked it to be extened as such. The people of Ballyfermot want the line to go down the N4 and connect to the Red line at Heuston, as expressed by their local representatives.
Do you propose we support them?

If you share the route alone the canal nobody really benefits as the people within the catchment there already have Luas and use it primarily to go to town. There is not a whole lot of benefit.
If however you seperate the lines along here, by say using the N4, you bring the Luas to a whole new corridor of people, which is a genuine public transport improvement.

If you want to improve public transport you would look at the catchment areas in the maps you mentioned and build something for the areas which are NOT currently served and improve the ones on the outskirts (15 mins from the Luas is a great distance for someone who is elderly).
Peter McDonagh18/06/2010The point is that the new Luas along the canal between the CIE Works and Suir Road would serve a greater number of people in Drimnagh and Inchicore than a Luas along the N4.

Look at the map: there is not much population north of the portion of the N4 that skirts Inchicore and Kilmainham.

People living along the N4 in North Inchicore are able to get the Bus on the QBC. It will be a simple matter of putting a bus stop on the inbound section of the N4 at memorial road. There is already a bus stop on the outbound section of the N4 at memorial road.
judi18/06/2010Nonsense Peter, sure the people living along the canal have the Luas already, and the Lucan Luas will integrate with it in either option. If it's at Heuston along N$, people living along the canal can still get the Luas to Lucan/liffey valley by changing at Heuston.

So by NOT sharing the canal route you bring the Luas to more people and the new line is integrated to the existing Red line so people along it can benefit too.
Peter McDonagh18/06/2010The Lucan F Luas will go to College Green via the canal and then James St., Thomas St., Christchurch and Dame Street. This gives Drimnagh and Inchicore a greater frequency Luas service and a new public transport route into the city and Luas access to the Inchicore Dart Station.

Putting the Luas on the N4 instead of via the canal actually brings the luas to LESS people. Look at where the populations live. More people will be served by the new Luas route at CIE Works, Blackhorse, Drimnagh, Goldenbridge and Suir Road.

The goal of public should be to serve populations by the best mode available. Bus is best along the N4. Luas is best along the canal.

Have you any opinion about the new Inchicore Dart Station Judi ? Do you agree with me that it makes sense to interconnect the Inchicore Dart Station with the Lucan F Luas line ?
Judi18/06/2010You're not listening to anything are u Peter? I think you have a very closed mind. The exact opposite is true.
Bringing the Luas along the N4 corridor (or any other one apart from the canal) opens it up to more people. It also, as a connected line, opens up more destinations to commuters from along the canal on the existing line.

The Luas F2, is called Luas Liberties, and its is seperate from the Lucan Luas.

There is not much point in arguing with you though Peter you see things is a distorted way, through the prism of your own self-interest.
Alan C18/06/2010Peter you're being untruthful now, that's complete rubbish.
You're also not being honest here at all.
Its disrespectful to pretend you are supporting others when you are clearly not, you're just distorting things to promote your own cause.
MF18/06/2010A population corridor has two sides. There are relatively few people living north of your proposed luas line between ballyfermot chruch and heuston. Thus your route is not a true corridor.

Keep it on the canal and more people are served.
judi18/06/2010That not true MF, along the canal extends the Luas to nobody.
Along the N4 extends it to the people living in Islandbridge, Kilmainham SCR, Lower Ballyfermot, and Islandbridge.

Along the canal less people are serverd, and served by less stops.
Along the N4 more people are served by Luas and there are more stops for everyone to use.

Also, this is not my proposal, it was put forward by the people in Ballyfermot, and I happen to think its better than the exisiting proposal for the very reasons I'm outlining.

Alan C18/06/2010You guys are morons.
It's a waste of time Judi, they will never listen to anybody else and will just continue to be ignorant of the facts.
Nuala18/06/2010I'm afraid that I disagree with "Judi" and "Alan C".

It would cause too much disruption for too little gain to build a Luas line along the N4.

The new LUAS service from Lucan to Trinity Collage would be best we went with the Railway Agency proposal of putting it along the canal.

Before the Luas interchange in the CIE Works was announced there was an "Alan C" who was expressing his (unfounded) concerns on this forum that a Dart station in the CIE Works would damage the village by diverting development away from the village and into the CIE Works instead. His views were discredited, by the way. Is the same "Alan C" who is now trying to say that the Luas should run along the N4 ? The agenda of "Alan C" and "Judi" is obvious to me; they are trying to remove the Luas line from the CIE Works. None of their arguments make sense. Does anybody else see their not-so-hidden agenda ?
Alan C18/06/2010Actually I said that the proposed location was not in-line with the Framework area plan for Inchicore and Kilmainham and would be damaging to the goals of this plan.
Irish Rail actually accepted this and have agreed to draft a new framework plan for the works site that is complimentary to the Inchicore plan, and they will also be required to make a contribution to the Inchicore development plans and Catherine Byrne is working on this at the moment.
Everybody in Inchicore will benefit from that development, so I would hardly call that being "discredited".
Things have moved on since then, but there is a lot of mis-information being posted here.

My agenda is to discuss the facts, you're seems to be to distort them.
MF18/06/2010All the misinformation is coming from you Alan. Where is this IOT report you referred to a few days ago?
Peter McDonagh19/06/2010Judi/Alan let's get a few facts straight.

The Luas serves more people using the RPA route with stations at Kylemore Park, Cie Works, Blackhorse, Drimnagh, Goldenbridge, Suir Road, Rialto, Fatima, James Hospital, and then on into College Green with stops along the way on James St, Thomas St, Christchurch, and Dame St.

The problem with the bad alternative route ye are talking about from sarsfield road to heuston is that the populations served would be less.

Finally, Alan, you've stated that there is an Iot commissioned report which states that the location of the dart station is bizare. No such report exists as far as I can see. I and others have challenged you to prove that you are not a spoofer inventing the contents of a report. We are waiting for an answer.
Alan C19/06/2010Peter I don't think you are capable of getting facts straight.

You don't seem to accept that having more stations would serve more people!
This basic concept seems to be beyond you.
MF19/06/2010What peter is saying makes sense to me.

A luas line on the N4 would have a lot less people living near it than a luas line beside the canal.

How many people would be served by each route do you think Alan?

By the way Alan where is this Inchicore On Track report ? Did you fabricate it ?
Melanie20/06/2010The Luas has been a great success and along with other enviromentally minded people I would like to see Dublin try to move towards a car free central area.This won't happen tomorrow but is a future aim.
There is already a Luas line along the canal. I use it frequently.
In order to increase the number of people with access to the Luas a new line has to go somewhere else, so that more different people rather than the same people again can use it.
If there were not a line along the canal at the moment, that would be the best place to put it, but an increase in access can only be achieved by putting it elsewhere.
I find the tone of this forum unnecessarily aggressive. An opinion is not a secret agenda surely it's an opinion and only people who work for which ever organisation builds the Luas have any power.
My secret agenda/opinion is that Sarsfield Road - N4 - link up with Red line route would be a great addition to the Luas Network. Conveying people to the North side far more quickly than the journey round the canal.
MF20/06/2010Melanie, I am an avid supporter of public transport but I don't agree with your argument.

For the sake of thrashing out the details, where would you, Alan and Judi suggest that luas stops are situated on a route via sarsfield road and the N4?

And while Alan is at it could he please provide an explanation of his false statement of fact of the findings Report that IOT comissioned
Daithi20/06/2010just coming back to an earlier Q from Peter ... No I'm not suggesting the luas should run through drimnagh. what i am saying is that public transport should be spread about a bit. the luas already serves sth inchicore and drimnagh. inchicore village and emmet rd is served by buses. the dart going through the works would serve the northern side and ballyfermot. having all publi transport in the centre of inchicore will create problems such as traffic congestion and ghettoisation in the area. this is an observation i've made in both london and sydney. another point is that regardless of where it's running through a luas or DART coming from lucan will be packed by the time it hits the area at peak times.
MF21/06/2010Hi Dathi, A good percentage of the city-bound darts will commence at Inchicore. It's because Inchicore will be the turnback facility. For those darts, the people getting on in Inchicore will be the first ones on the train.

Regarding your earlier query about the number 19 bus, Catherine Bryne TD is running a campaign to save it. I got a flyer in the letterbox from her. Mary Mc has posted a query on here too about the 19 bus.
Peter McDonagh22/06/2010Alan C, On the 17th June you said that Inchicore On Track commissioned report which stated that the location of the dart station is bizare.

Alan, the report that Inchicore On Track comissioned DID NOT say that the location of the station was bizzare.

Alan, You are either a LIAR or have been MISINFORMED. Which is it Alan ?

There is a Master Plan being developed for the Inchicore Dart station in conjunction with Dublin City Council.
Alan C22/06/2010Peter you're not capeable of understanding basic logic so my time is wasted on you.
You're arguments are bizzare and frivilous and not worthy of any response from me.
It's astonishing how ignorant some people can be!
Peter McDonagh22/06/2010Alan, there's no need to be snappy. Would you ever relax.

Your credibility is in doubt and I am giving you a chance to explain yourself.

On the 17/07/10 you stated on thus forum, and I quote: "The IOT commisioned report stated that the location of the Station was bizzare"

What I am telling you Alan as a fact is that the report IOT comissioned DID NOT SAY that the location of the station was bizzare.

You seem to claim to know alot about the local area, local politics and seem very knowledgable.

But I'm confused Alan. I was wondering how you could make such a massive mistake about the contents of the report that Inchicore on Track comissioned.

Was it a deliberate attempt by you to misprepresent the contents of the report that Inchicore on Track comissioned ? What do you have to say Alan...

The reason for my suspicion is that you have consistently shown that you are biased against the location of the Dart Station in the CIE works.
Peter McDonagh22/06/2010Correction: it was 17/06/10 and not 17/07/10 that you stated this Alan.
Alan C22/06/2010Peter you are a very nasty person.
Peter McDonagh22/06/2010Alan, there's no need to resort to name calling. You were asked a simple question: Why did you make that false statement about the contents of the contents of the report comissioned Inchicore On Track ? It is quite a serious allegation that has been made against you. I want to know why you did it ? You have been asked several times to provide an answer and you have said nothing in repsonse. This simply is unacceptable.
Alan C22/06/2010Peter give it a rest, you're the one who started name calling and that is a loaded question and since you are not prepared to listen to anybody else's opinion there is no point in answering it.

Grop up and stop being a moron.
Peter McDonagh22/06/2010Ok then, I'll rephrase the question.

1. Why did you post a message on 17/06/10 saying that Inchicore on Track comissioned a report which stated that the location of the location of the station was bizzare?

2. Do you accept that the report comissioned by Inchicore on Track DID NOT state that the location of the station was bizzare.
Frank23/06/2010I think that there is some unnecessary rudeness on this forum.

However, Peter does appear have a genuine grievance with what Alan said about the Report.

As someone who is familiar with Inchicore on Track, I would hate to see people being misinformed about what their Reports said.

I can confirm that the Report didn't say that the position of the station was bizzare.

The Report is on public view at
ciara26/06/2010I had a read through those reports and it seems that the "inchiocre on track" group have achieved their main goals.

Fair play to them, they ran a very successful campaign. Personally speaking I wasn't too concerned about the construction work as it would not affect me directly. But I'm glad that a solution has been worked out whereby the heavy construction work will take place in the Works and away from the residential part of the cie estate.
Peter McDonagh29/06/2010Will the new LUAS route along the canal help with the regeneration of St. Michael's Estate ? I definitely think so. I would imagine that Dublin City Council recognise this also. The Council report in December 2008 highlights the strong connections of St Michael's Estate to the LUAS corridor at the canal.
Judi29/06/2010Peter I have to disagree with you again, as the existing Luas line alone the canal has made no difference, and the addition of a connection to Ballyfermot and Lucan is hardly going to improve things in St Michaels.

The demolition of the remaining flats and the construction of family homes with an appropriate environment around them is the answer, and thats the plan and its doe to happen soon, unless the council mess it all up AGAIN.
The Luas link to Lucan has absolutely no impact on these plans.
Peter McDonagh29/06/2010Judi, Dublin City Council commissioned a report following the failure of the PPP in 2008. Their December 2008 report is on the DCC website. The report is titled The Findings and Recommendations of the Special Housing Task Force on Housing Regeneration Projects.

Here is a quote from the report:

"The existing Luas Red Line (Tallaght to Connolly Station) follows a route
along the Grand Canal close to the south site boundary. A Luas stop (the
Drimnagh stop) is within close walking distance via St Vincent's StreetWest
and a new pedestrian bridge across the Canal.

Under Transport 21, the Luas Line F from Lucan to the City Centre (College
Green) has two options. Option 1 would take a route along Emmet Road
directly adjoining the north site boundary. Option 2 would utilise the existing Red Line corridor a short distance south of the site. Both options provide advantages to connect the site strategically with city public transport."

The DCC 2008 report also re-iterates that the LUAS stop at the south of St. Michael's Estate is designated under the Inchicore Framework Plan as a Strategic Gateway into Inchicore signaling an entry point and nodal point for the village and announcing an arrival into Inchicore from an important route.
Judi30/06/2010Peter, there are endless reports on the shelves in DCC with endless amounts of rubbish in them.

The solution at St Michaels is very simple, the problem is too many reports and too much shelving of them.

Establishing false dependancies between the St Michaels project (or its failures) and other projects is more of a hinderance to getting it sorted out than any help at all.
The site needs to be demolished and family homes built there in a suitable environment.
Setting up links to other projects that may never happen, like Luas, is only going to put the whole thing at risk AGAIN.
Alan C30/06/2010Peter you know that this out-of-date as the Lucan line doesn't go to the city center any more, it goes from Lucan to Blackhorse. The city center part is now called Luas Liberties and is a completely seperate Luas project.
This opinion from the DCC report is out-of-date.
Alan C30/06/2010So the Railway Order is being submitted today, the only missing part is the money!
Somehow the government have commited no money to this project and seem to think they can get a PPP and pay back in the furture!
This seems to be a major weakness in the project and could be a real threat to its delivery.
Peter McDonagh30/06/2010Hi Alan, Yes, the December 2008 report of the DCC taskforce is out of date. During 2009 RPA decided to split the Lucan Luas project in two phases:
1. Luas Lucan (Line F1) from Lucan to The Point;
2. Luas Liberties (Line F2) from St. James’s Street to College Green.

This is a change in the timelines for construction. The end result would still be the same.

The RPA specified that Luas Liberties (F2) and Luas Lucan (F1) are two phases of the same project.

The advantages to St. Michael's Estate are still there with the project in two phases (F1 and F2).

The view of the Special Housing Task Force on Housing Regeneration Projects would still be that there are singificant strategic advantages accruing to St. Michael's Estate by the presence of the Lucan Luas and Liberties Luas adjacent to St. Michael's Estate at the southern boundary.
Alan C01/07/2010What are these advantages Peter?
Somehow I think they are mostly related to the Liberties Line but having the Luas line already there brings these benefits already.
Perhaps they should just use the advantage the already have and build something there already.

I think it's time to stop scratching heads and get the finger out, St Michaels Estate is a prime development site and its inexcusable that its potential has not been achieved.
Peter McDonagh01/07/2010Alan,

Luas F1 (Lucan Line) will provide greater frequency (possibly double) the number of Luas trams from St. Michael's Estate going in the direction of Heuston, Smithfield, Jervis St and Abbey Street.

Luas F1 (Lucan Line) will provide the shortest and fastest possible Luas journey between St. Micahel's Estate at the Dart Underground Line. i.e. to the Inchicore Dart Station in the CIE Works.

Luas F1 (Lucan Line) will provide new direct Luas access from St. Michael's Estate to the western city including Ballyfermot Village and Liffey Valley Town Centre.

Luas F2 (Liberties Line) will provide new direct Luas access from St. Michael's Estate to James St., Thomas St., Chrustchurch, Dame St, and College Green.

There is widespread agreement that the regeneration of St. Michael's Estate has been a shambles. I agree that those involved should be ashamed.

All current and future public transport infrastructure advantages should be leveraged so as to move matters on and encourage regeneration of St. Michaael's. I'm sure that if the DCC Special Housing Task Force on Housing Regeneration Projects did an update to their Dec 2008 report they would still highlight the benefits to St. Michael's of the Luas F line project, regardless of the fact that it's since been split into two phases (F1 and F2)
Alan c01/07/2010I suppose I have to agree with Peter you for a change, however I think the special task force has failed badly and should be disbanded.
The excellent transport links would make the site very suitable for selling, or to hand over to the OPW to use for Exploration Station, the science museum that was supposed to be built at Heuston Gate.

Leaving matters as they are is not a good option, the planning submission the task force has lodged is a shambles as it is basically a repeat of the same old problems already experienced on this site only on a smaller less ambitious scale.