Irish Rail consultation this week

AuthorMessage DateMessage
Sarah Madigan30/11/2009I can't make the meeting in the Hilton so I wonder if it would be possible for Irish Rail to distribute electronic copies (CD/DVD) of their proposals.
Mark N02/12/2009Another major disappointment. Lots of maps but very few specifics on the real human impact of the project on residents' lives. When questioned on specifics the Irish Rail representatives seemed to be making it up as they go along.
gerry mc03/12/2009A charm offensive by IR.
The best part of the event was the site in which it was shown ,one kilmainham Sq with its triple height entry and atrium.
Lots and lots of maps and schemes well attended by IR people but with very little to offer in human terms ,the focus was on matters technical.
A good night out for railway anoraks.
For anyone living near or at the heart of the portal there was little comfort.
John Farrelly04/12/2009Very little new information, tried quizzing IE staff about a better location for the station ie perhaps underground and nearer the Village but seems its impossible and not a priority...not sure I believe them though!
Alan C04/12/2009The DART underground project was set-up to deliver a connection from Heuston to the Northern line with stations along the way. So it's true that the Inchicore station is not a priority and its location is not important in delivering the original project.
That doesn't mean its a good decision, I think when they decided to move the portal to Inchicore they disregarded the needs and the fabric of Inchicore and surrounding areas. They have not made any effort to design this piece of infrastructure to fit in with the statutory local area plans and this is a big mistake. The Kilmainham Area office have done good work in trying to identify the issues about connectivity in the area, and proposed station location would seem to be contrary to good planning in terms of the connectivity needs identified by the local authority.
This is the only real chance of successfully objecting to the Railway order next year.
Its important this plan is scrutinised and assed to see if it would harm the fabric of the local community, this would not be necessary or desirable.
We are lucky that the Kilmainham Area Office has done a lot of good work to produce guidelines for planning in the area. Its just not acceptable for IR to disregard these.
Alan C04/12/2009Another point is that the whole reason for building underground transport is so you can access built-up areas, not to bypass them! There really is no good reason not to built a station underground for Inchicore. We should expect International best practice in a project of this size.
Paul Cullen04/12/2009Alan's points are well made. The station makes no sense in itself, it does local people no favours - too far away - but would eventually spark massive redevelopment of the Works. All this is irrelevant to IR, as it's only another Euro2-3 million on top of a multi-billion euro project to provide a basic station.

What work by the local area office are you referring to, Alan?
Alan C05/12/2009Hi Paul, the Local Authority area office for Inchicore is the Kilmainham Area Office on SCR.

The link is below and there are a couple of important blueprints for the Area that are relevant to IR's proposal.
The Inchicore Framework plan
Strengthing Communinties - making spaces.

The area plan is a statutory plan and can not be disregarded by the council or any other planning authority and both plans documents much be taken into consideration in any panning decisions.

I think this will be the basis for any sucessful objection. If IR proposal would be detrimental to these plans then the must make that right by either changing their plan or by providing the resources to advance the local plans themselves.

The second document on strengthing communities and making spaces, talks about the poor connectivity in the local areas etc and the proposed station location is going to make this worse to be honest.
CB05/05/2010Underground DART delayed until 2018

Wednesday, 5 May 2010 11:51
The completion date for Dublin's Underground DART link has been put back three years to 2018.
But the Govt says the €2bn project remains a priority.
An Iarnród Éireann spokeswoman said that the planning applications had taken longer than expected and the project, along with others in Transport 21, had been 'elongated'.

Iarnród Éireann has issued a video presentation and is also holding a series of public consultations before next month's application for a railway order to An Bord Pleanála.
Transport Minister Noel Dempsey previously described the 7.6km underground rail link as the most critical piece of public transport in the state.
The project which will be a public private partnership and will involve linking Docklands with Heuston Station through underground stations at Pearse, St Stephen's Green and Christchurch.
It will also provide an interchange with DART, Commuter, Intercity and LUAS services, as well as the planned Metro lines.
The present coastal DART line will be split, with the northern line finishing at the Docklands and the southern line at Pearse but the interconnector will provide an interchange between the two.
Alan C05/05/2010RTE also running a story about Environmental Impact Assesments, it seems that it is not considered legal by the European Courts of Justice for the Government to authorise projects before the EIA is published!
This coule be a possable legal stick for oppenants to any major governemnt project to use!
Alan C07/05/2010So the consultations started yesterday at the Civic Offfices, Irish Rail have now got a "Preferred" option for the tunnel portal in the Inchicore Works, basically the shifted it into the works site and have left the station location as was previously proposed, exactly as was. Major coup for the Inchicore-On-Trackers, fair play. But the station is still about a kilometer (as the crow flies) or 15min walk from the Village, so unless you live west of the Village, Bluebell, or around Landen Rd Ballyer, this is no use to you. It will actually draw people, new homes, jobs and investment away from the Village too. Not only will it not server the majority of Inchicore residents it will actually have a detremental impact on the community and its Village core.
The only solution here is to forget this station and get the portal moved back to Heuston, which is possable, or to get Irish Rail to properly asses the imact of this on Inchiocre and make provision to deal with this.
Such provisions might include improvement works providing better linkage around the community (Camac linear park for example, and cctv?And a village improvement scheme which would actually attract investment to the village. I think that is key to making this sucessful for Inchicore.
What are people's thoughts on this?
How about asking the RPA to make that luas change to bring the line into the village?
Concerned07/05/2010Hi Alan C, I would fight tooth and nail against your idea of banishing the dart station from Inchicore just because it's not in the centre of the so called "village" (i.e. the area around the emmett road junction with tyrconnel road).

I agree that the so called village is a bit tatty and needs improvement and would gladly lend support to any proposals to improve its appearance.

But I disagree with your thesis that a dart station in the CIE Works would detract from the village.

One of the major problems with the village is that it is bisected by two main thoroughfares linking the city centre with the west of the city. This results in huge volumes of vehicular traffic passing through the village each day. Consequently, the retail village core suffers in terms of increased traffic congestion, noise and air pollution. Locating the Inchicore station to the west of the village will remove a considerable volume of Ballyfermott vehicular traffic from the village.
Alan C07/05/2010Hi Concerned
I can't believe you think that the new proposed DART station would reduce traffice through the Village! Surely it would have the opposite affect? Not to mention all the crafty Dubs parking anywhere they can find in the vacinity.
All these things need to be looked at properly anyway and the impact (and there will be a lot of impact) on the Village assessed and measures taken to mitigate and balance any negative impact.
Surely though it would be quicker cheaper and more in-line with the original objective to put the portal in Heuston, which as I said is possable. The main problem with that was that the hard-working Irish Rail head office staff would loose their carpark.
Alan C07/05/2010Just to add on to what I was saying..

This project is basically suffering from scope creep. The extension to Inchicore, the dev plan for the Inchicore works etc is why the project is not on schedule and is not on budget.
The only solution to scope creep is to cut corners.

Don't be surprised if Inchicore is cut from this project by the Minister as a quick way to get back-on-track and save money!
Martin07/05/2010Alan, would it be correct to say that you are hoping that corners aren't cut? The reason I ask is as follows. If the tunnel stopped at Hueston then there would be no station in the village of inchicore. From reading your posts on this website it's apparent that you are advocating for a station in the village.
Alan C 08/05/2010Hi Martin, I would love to have a station in the village but Irish Rail are not going to do that unfortunately.
Therefore it makes little difference to Inchicore if the portal is at Heuston.
There could still be a station in the Inchicore Works as the line passes through there and you could even have this slightly closer to the village if they wanted to do that, but they don't.

IF you have the tunnel at Heuston you could have a station at the entrance to the War Memorial Gardens on St John Rd which is as close to the village you could ever get from Irish Rail. It probably wont ever happen though.

I think that Dublin needs DART Underground, and if it needs to be scaled back to the original concept to get this back on track then so be it. Nobody really need to loose out from that, apart from the Irish Rail staff at Heuston who would loose their carpark!

In Summary: You can have the portal at Heuston AND a station in Inchicore (pref closer to village even if only slightly).
Martin08/05/2010Hi alan, you were advocating a relocation of the dart station from the cie works to the centre of the village. You also want a luas line through the centre of the village. Are these not your aims anymore? now you are advocating a scaling back of the entire project to save time. Why have you changed your views?
Alan C 08/05/2010Hi Martin, I haven't really changed my view. The problem with the proposals as they stand is that they will harm the village, and it would obviously be better if the plans enhanced the village, that is why I have advocated an underground station in the Village. Basically I haven't changed this view but I am being realistic and not expecting this to ever happen.
I think that Irish Rail in their consultations with An Bord Pleanala have also come to the realization that they can not just disregard the impact their plans will have on the Village of Inchicore and the existing Area Plans for it.

Their are a couple of ways Irish Rail can progress this, they can asses the impact on the local area with regard to Local Area Plans and take measures make good and negative impact, all in partnership with the council.
A realistic alternative is to scale back to Heuston, therefore not doing any harm to Inchicore, and also keeping the option of the station in Inchicore works and its redevelopment as a seperate project.
They dont really have any other options.
What are your own views Martin?
Martin08/05/2010Alan, i went to the Irish rail public consultation in the civic offices on Wednesday 5th may 2010. I also went to the rpa public consultation last week in Liffey geals to view the rpa plan to reroute the Lucan luas through the cie works so that it connects with the dart station in the works. Both the inchicore dart station and the new luas station beside it are in my view an excellent plan. It maximises the potential of the public transport and land use. My neighbour who is a member of inchicore on track tells me that the senior planners in the city council and all the local area councillors are on board to develop a master plan for the cie works. The senior planners are going to take the surrounding areas of bluebell, inchicore and ballyfermot into account when developing a master plan for the cie works. I anticipate that your concerns are addressed.
Alan C 08/05/2010Thanks Martin, I think the planning has come a long way in the last few months, after a bad start by Irish Rail needless to say.
I am looking forward to seeing what the plans for the Inchicore Works site are, my understanding is that its the council that will officially be enacting these so I hope there is a better level of public consultation there. I hope it doesnt end up as a standard mixed-use scheme, it would be great to see a university or something like that there.
Ed Brophy11/05/2010The legal position with regard to the Dart Underground and the EIA is that the relevant planning authority cannot grant planning to the project without carrying out and environmental impact assessment (EIA). In order to seek planning the sponsor of the project (CIE) will carry out its own environmental impact statement (EIS). However only the planning authority has the legal right to catty out an EIA.

As regards the promotion of the project by the government without an EIA being carried out, this is an entirely different matter as the promotion of a project is ultimately a commercial / policy matter while the actual grant of planning for same is solely a matter for the relevant planning authority.
Daithi12/05/2010Having lived in Sydney for a no. of years I noticed that areas/villages with underground stations tend to get a bit run down. Soplacing a station in the heart of the village may not be the best idea for development. Furthermore, Inchicore is well served by public transport and the DART only adds to the existing services. The Luas serves Inchicore Sth and Drimnagh. The buses serve Bulfin Rd and Emmet Rd. The only area not well served is the Works. I think it is reasonable to expect to walk .5Km or 5 mins to public transport. If you can't do that then it's a medical centre that's more likely to be needed. Also the location of the proposed station appears to service Ballyfermot which does not have the transport ooptions Inchicore has.
John Farrelly12/05/2010Anything new from the Public Consultation in Kilmainham last night?